Bleach Chapter 471 Discussion
- Thread starter NitrogenousBeingcU
- Start date
- #2
Arashi89 said:
What?! And how does that make him more human?! He killed his wife in cold blood!! Are you implying that murder is a humane act?!
Yes.
Humanity is the only animal in this planet to have an intent to kill beyond self-preservation. Its our nature to kill each other. The very first story of brothers in old testament mythology alone was about murder. :)
Humane Pronunciation:/hjʊˈmeɪn/, adjective
having or showing compassion or benevolence:regulations ensuring the humane treatment of animals
That's what I was trying to say, but apparently you're too busy trying to justify the twisted views of fictional characters and forgetting that the whole story of Cain and Abel isn't supposed to be an apology for murder.
Reading comprehension, you seem to lack it.
Fai said:
Arashi89 said:
The problem here isn't power and the way someone uses it, it's the complete lack of empathy of most FBs. Just because you don't know how to use abilities, it doesn't mean you have the right to kill pepole, you have morality and society rules that forbid you to do so. Yet most Fullbringers decided to reject all of those for their own petty and insane beliefs, and they grew up as assasins and social recluses.
Morality? Society rules? Black and white logic again. Society rules and morals change every day and every moment. Few decades ago for a woman to enter a library or university was counted as immoral.
In the core essence we all are animals.
Thank you for learning the basics of moral relativism and completely twisting it in your own favor. I'll be very honest with you: your ideas are absoutely revolting and nonsensical.
What's that bullshit about women not being able to enter, and what does this have to do with murder?! What this has to do with Bleach?! Just because a fictional work has two opposite factions which aren't shining examples of goodness and civility, it doesn't mean that we suddenly have to approve murder only to sympathize with some fictional beings. There's reality and there's fantasy, and in reality murder is and has always been bad, unlike the possibility for women to enter in a library.
But you know what's the worst part of this? I never thought that you could make an apology for murder just to prove your point about the way of living of fictional characters and trying to make an excuse for Kubo's own inability to make rounded characters.
Fai said:
Arashi89 said:
I agree that the way SS used its power to establish what is basically a feudal militar dictatorship, but FBs don't really stand on moral high ground either.
And they are not trying to. They are trying to gain power, the difference, as I said is that FB's KNOW their own arrogance and do not try to sugarcoat their own goals. NO ONE has an upper moral side anytime.
AS shunsui said "in war everyone is a villain". The main core worldview of bleach has always been gray/gray morality system.
And while FBs might be dicks and etc, in this very argument Riruka was having with Rukia, SS is the wrong one.
Really? So they're not fighting for justice and equality between superpowered pepole in the Bleachverse? Then what's the point of Riruka little speech if they're only power hungry? No, what's the point of presenting them in a positive view?
Also, why, after you that morality has no reason to be in Bleach, you claim that Rukia is the wrong one in the argument with Riruka, an argument based on morality? Your opinions are self-contradictory.
- #4
could you at least agree that in a hypothetical situation were little kids had super-natural abilities there would be severe mishaps or possibly even casualties do to improper use of their powers?
My problem with that scenario is the one where Riruka trapped a guy in a box, stealing dolls or other toys is understandable for a kid. Kids with supernatural powers would more likely be inclined to steal things like toys, candy, etc.
kizu-kun said:
I somewhat agree,
but she was never taught how manage her powers a.k.a. that knives are dangerous. She didn't think it would hurt him to be placed int the box. What i was getting at is that she just an immature kid who thought she could do what ever she wanted and was not as mentally unstable as you all make her out to be. A kid that gets hold of a knife might indeed hurt himself or others but that doesn't make them stupid or crazy. She did hurt someone but she learned from her mistakes before it was too late.
fishergirl16 said:
Hmm. Interesting. But, have you ever thought that she knew no one else with these powers? It would take a matured person to even try to know what to do with them.
If you found out you had super powers, wouldn't you be scared? Well, Riruka had passed that stage of disregarding them and she's trying to accept her powers, and think of herself as higher than other people because of them, just because she wants to be normal. So she tries to use her powers to control someone that she loves believing that because she has powers she's higher than the 'regular' humans and should be loved, rather than be ignored as a little girl. It basically has to do with child desire. She wants someone, and because now she has a 'use' for her powers, she'll use it to get what she wants.
Riruka seemed to be able to know how to manipulate her powers. She knew exactly how to put that person and take that person out of the box, so she seems to be well aware of how her powers worked. I think she's mentally unstable because she seems to be aware of what she's doing at age 7, it's 1 thing to steal dolls from other people, it's another thing to trap them in boxes, starving them and almost, potentially starving them to death.
Puty said:
Great Machuran, now you've spoiled my every week fun - reading these bleach threads(while not reading the actual manga for quite long). That quote means no "reading comprehension - you lack it" posts and no more "obvious" facts and theories of those blank/reaction/one-panel/ pages from mr. amusing this week. x/
But I guess I have to somewhat congratulate you for shutting up the biggest bleachtard(yeah, "7" my ass) on this forum x).
Well, you're welcome.
- #5
Erm, the flash back was shorter than expected.. Still not very clear but now we know that they are a bunch of people feeling sorry for themselves and thus wanting to take revenge.. I can sympathize with them, same as Rukia did, but there could be a better way of living their lives rather than focusing on revenge. Thats my thoughts on it for now, since the story is not done yet.. I might change my point of view later on..
The flashbacks had nothing to do with the Shinigamis, if anyone had to take revenge it's Jackie against the people responsible killing her family, not the Shinigamis. The rest are a bunch of messed up psychos.
generalmartacus said:
Solid flashback chapter. Plus the fact that he got everyone in in ONE CHAPTER - pretty sweet. This actually made me like the Fullbringers more, because up to this point we didn't know anything about them, and now they really come across as human, and by that I mean flawed beings with a different outlook than the shinigami.
Bring on the next one!!!
More human? 1 of them killed his wife for no good reason.
icegenie said:
And what Rukia said about the Xcution guys is true.. Although The Shinigamis are hated by many, when they face an enemy, they stand together as one and they fight for 1 purpose.. Same for Ichigo and gang.. But in the case of Ginjo and gang, they were separated by Yukio's fullbring and in my opinion, they are fighting for their individual purpose which happen to coincide with the same theme of revenge/hatred for others...
The problem is that their 'revenge/hatred' is misdirected at the wrong people. The Shinigamis had nothing to do with their messed up lives, maybe Ginjou has some problems with them, but for the other Fullbringers, it doesn't make sense for them to take it out on them.
Fai said:
Actually you are talking just about a handful of captains.
Captains are somewhat nice people, but they STILL are arrogant pricks. They follow orders and if order is given to kill one of their own they would not hesitate unless they have personal connection to that person deeper than the whole "teamwork" stuff.
The whole shinigami structure is about strength of One - the strongest is captain commander, his orders are executed by captains who order around the squads, you become captain by either taking a vacant seat through display of power and bankai or by killing the previous one.
Then we have millions of shinigami who are massive dicks, entire soul society with shinigami selflesly shielded in their immovable castle and millions of weak souls perishing and living on outside it.
Rukia might have a nice position of just and etc, but she is STILL, just like rest of SS, a huge hypocrite who holds herself more valuable than those she judges, as shown by her very bland and very hypocritical response this chapter.
Her worldview was challenged and she shrugged it off with her own superiority.
Connecting this with Ishida's doubts about SS motives, the still unexplained reason behind shinigami badge, Aizen's reasons for rebelling, the mystery behind zeroth squad and soul king and how exactly Maggot's Nest works, the fact that shinigami so far pretty much just used characters for their own purposes(even urahara pretty much manipulated everyone he knows in the living world for his purposes, including Ichigo), as well as fact that we still do not have Ginjou's and Tsuki's backstories and it seems Kubo IS painting Shinigami as very arrogant and antagonistic beings and hypocrites.
Now I am pretty much expecting some huge revelation by Ginjou soon.
Fai said:
What Made Ginjo hate SS? Between their regular genocide activities, immoral experiments, medieval-level of politics, class warfare, nobility politics, stuff gone wrong, rogue stuff, soul king secret, millions of other secrets, including the real purpose of the shinigami badge which we still don't know - spin the bloody wheel...
Well, we don't exactly know what Ginjou's deal is yet, it probably does have to do with the Soul Society, but we'll have to wait and see in the next chapters.
Fai said:
Fullbringers have problem with the overall arrogance SS displays. Why? BECAUSE they experienced it themselves, by being arrogant themselves. Difference is that SS tries to justify it while FBs already know how wrong that is.
Except the flashbacks show that the Fullbringers' problems are self-inflicted (except Jackie's dad), that had nothing to do with the Shinigamis. Both the Shinigamis and the Fullbringers are arrogant for different reasons. The Shinigamis are arrogant because of their pride/honor to carry out their duties. The Fullbringers are arrogant because they're just completely messed up.
A Shinigami didn't force Giriko to kill his wife, a Shinigami didn't turn Yukio against his parents, a Shinigami didn't kill Jackie's family, a Shinigami didn't have anything to do with Riruka's bratty selfishness.
- #6
Hmmm... A proper analogy would be a rich brat having the power and authority to do whatever he/she wants to get whatever he/she wants.. It's probably the same as having powers, the fact that they can do things that 'normal' people cant. We dont call these rich people "sociopaths". They just have the power to do things their way. Especially for children because they just want instant gratification.
True, that would be a proper analogy.
icegenie said:
Well, even if he never thought it would work, the point is that he made that thought in the first place.. Which is pretty scary, I would say.. We wouldn't know if it was for "no good reason" (as someone mentioned) exactly because we don't know the relationship between the two.
That's why I pointed out two possibilities, since it never said why the thought crossed his mind. I take no pity on the guy, since such an act is unreasonable and wrong, even if you have unusual powers. The thought itself is scary, I admit.
icegenie said:
Sorry? I din catch the part about stealing a pair of shiny boots.. I thought her family died cause of her dad's involvement in the black market, not about the stolen boots...
Whoops, my mistake. I forgot to add "Well, it said that it was brought from her dad’s illegal activities, so the boots were probably not the only thing that was stolen" or something like that, I can't remember. You might have read a different translation, because the chapter I read, it implied that Jackie was aware that they were stolen.
- #7
- why ichigo has a hard time kicking ginjous butt? was the self confidence just fake, since one of his arms is friggin burned (sorry last chapter this one..)
- if we should feel sorry for the fullbringers?
- why soul society helped ichigo regain his powers? is it really just because he helped the a lot?
- where is urahara and ishhin??????!!!!!
Also I want to thank Fai for his/her wonderful analyzes every week (jump to your komments everytime!), it really helps me understand what I don't get in the chapters (since I kinda read the chapters and feel like nothing important has happened...) Though I don't agree that Gin died since he dissapeared without a clue. BUT I agree with you that SS hides something from ichigo and I've concidered shinigamis from SS to be very evil that clears every mistake or problem they created by erasing the "enemy" from the picture. That's why I hate Jama-Jii, he orders ichigo around even if ichigo made better decisions than them! pretty ok chapter 3/5
- #10
monkeysrumble said:
I must agree with Kizu. Sometimes kids don't know any better and just do things they shouldn't be doing. I'm pretty sure everyone has had some type of experience of doing something they shouldn't be doing when they were a kid (maybe not as intense as Riruka did) and you probably got punished or told that what you did was wrong. But there are cases in which kids really did have a mental disorder that made them do whatever it is they did, but in my opinion that wasn't the case with Riruka.
What kind of kid traps a person inside a box? Not all kids are like this, sure they might do bad things like stealing candies or something, but what Riruka did was psychologically messed up, so a mental disorder wouldn't be completely out of the question. could you at least agree that in a hypothetical situation were little kids had super-natural abilities there would be severe mishaps or possibly even casualties do to improper use of their powers?
- #11
1. Murder = prove of human. But murder not = humane. There's a difference. Think about it. When other animals kill each other, we don't call it murder. We only use murder when a human kills another. We don't even call it murder when a ghost or any other supernatural being (vampire, or even shinigami) kills a human. But its not a humane act. Even Kubo wrote a quote, "to err is human. To kill is evil." Some of you might see my point as a contradiction but its not. I am discussing about the words murder, human and humane, and how they relate to each other.
2. Yes I believe its possible for a 7 year old kid to do what Riruka did if given superpowers. When I was about that age, a female relative of my age stayed in my house for a week. I really liked the doll she had and I took it when she wasn't looking and hid it somewhere she couldn't find it. But conscience got the better of me, just like Riruka. She realized that the situation turned into something she din expect. She definitely wasn't psycho. If she was, she wouldn't have realized that.
3. Yes, the fullbringers don't deserve our pity. Ichigo used his powers to good use. Even though he din have an unfavourable lives like some, he had his own share of mishaps in life. Actually I don't think yukio and riruka had a bad life. Their revenge on SS is still unjustified at this point (if that is their motive). Even though the shinigamis might be arrogant or whatsoever, they have a ultimate mission which is to protect SS.
Hmmmm.. I think that's it for now. Kubo has lots more explaining to do.
- #12
Whatever happen to Riruka not wanting to fight?
Well, I think it's because Rukia angered Riruka by being too arrogant to the illusion of "The weak becomes meat for the strong to eat." and the fullbringers being a "scraps of weak meat". In human sense, it's what they call "blind empathy". "Don't just spout words out of your own convenience, shinigami", I think that's Riruka's feelings and thoughts just now.
