Bleach Chapter 471 Discussion

Ow, it was kinda nice. The flashback was actually interesting, added some depth to the FB. Although it is irrelevant to the series since character development is not something KT really cares. I'm pretty sure Fbs will be either the dead or forgetten as soon as Ginjou spouts his conspiracy theory.



Honestly, there's a lot of bullshit going on. Right now all I want is to hear what Ginjou and Tsukushima have to say.

The predator talk bordered the nonsensical. The world never target them for being who they were or for what powers they had. Giriko could absolutely gone a totally different way, the guy could have become a fucking "super" Batman, with his powers.



W/e, I really need to hear Ginjou motivation. But whatever he may say, two wrongs don't make a right.

And then In the end: every past of those characters are illusion because tsukishima manipulated them....

Peralisc said:
snap out of your imaginary world, that perfectly describes a good portion of human nature



how can you be so ignorant to what being a human means? the definition of being human (Humane) was displayed enough at least during 2 world wars + the constant rape/murder reports on TV

THAT IS ALSO PART OF HUMAN NATURE! Like it or not, IT IS part of what defines humans.



Maybe you should snap out of your imaginary world, not all humans are like that.  Not everyone is a murderer or a rapist.



Human nature is about making our own choices, that makes us different from each other and from other species.



kizu-kun said:
except that a 7 year old would be a first grader. I didn't go through the same education system but im pretty sure they're are not cracking the whip and being all strict in first grade. but that's besides the point. You are going in a whole nother direction bringing in real world japanese education and what not.



My point was that Maruchan was demonizing this little girl. Kids tend to do bad things and get in trouble, and yes they deserve to suffer consequences for their bad behavior, but to call her some deranged psycho maniac is going to far. Especially when she did eventually see the error of her ways. A bad kid might see some candy in a store and decide to steal it. In her case she was a selfish brat who saw a guy she liked and used her powers to get him. Yes kidnapping is something we see as psychotic but in real life normal kids wouldn't even be capable of doing that. And she just wanted to play with him rather than torturing him or doing perverse things like a real psycho maniac would. So i'm not saying she's shouldn't be punished i'm saying stop making her into Jack the Charles Manson Hitler Ripper.



I wasn't demonizing anyone, I was just saying that not all 7 year olds behave that way, which is why I called her a psycho in the 1st place.  What you're describing are examples of some children behaving that way, but not everyone is like that.



Stealing candy is completely different from kidnapping and trapping a person in a box, there's a huge difference between the scenarios that you presented.

Fai said:
Yes. Thats exactly why they are more human tahn all other bleach characters. THEY ALL misused their power with their personal flaws.



No, that's like saying a serial killer/rapist is just a personal flaw.  In this example, he outright killed someone without any good reason.  These people are messed up to the point where they need to see a psychiatrist or get institutionalized.



Fai said:
RIght, wrong and wrong.



Yes, FB's misused their powers, they all had those awesome powers, but just had no idea how to use them to fit into the world they lived in, leading to isolation. thats exactly WHY they hate shinigami.



Wrong, these incidents have nothing to do with Shinigamis.  They're misdirecting their hatred because their own lives are messed up.  They isolated themselves and chose not to fit in.  This isn't like X-Men where the mutants are hunted down and shunned from the rest of society.  These Fullbringers did this to themselves (well, except Jackie, that was her dad's fault).



Fai said:
FBs are arrogant, misused their powers and KNOW it. Shinigami are arrogant, misuse their power and try to hypocritically justify it.



They're both arrogant, you're just trying to justify the Fullbringers' actions.  The Shinigamis use their powers to follow orders as part of their duties as arrogant as that may be.  Misusing powers would be like someone robbing a bank or becoming the most powerful being on Earth.  The Fullbringers are just taking out their problems on Shinigamis, when they have nothing to do with their own personal issues.



The arrancars at least had a reason to hate the Shinigamis because of what they do to hollows.



Fai said:
And its honor that makes shinigami hold themselves above the other souls and to live nobly and perfectly in seireitei while infinity of souls in SS starve and suffer? You can't just apply black and white morality to Bleach. This manga has been firmly rooted in Gray/Gray and Gray/Black since SS days.



I never said they were the good guys, but that doesn't justify the Fullbringers and their so-called hatred.  The Fullbringers have no good reason be high and mighty against the Shinigamis.  This would have been more understandable if it was a group of hollows or the poor spirits in the Soul Society that feel this way.



Fai said:
Thank you for completely missing the point of flashback yet again.



Thank you for completely taking my words out of context.  The point of this flashback was just a pity party for these people with messed up lives.  The problem is that it's disconnected from the current situation.  Their personal problems have nothing to do with the Shinigamis, maybe Ginjou easily manipulated them like he did with Ichigo, but that still has no relations to the Shinigamis or Soul Society.  With the Espadas/Arrancars/Hollows, there was actually some reason for the deep-seated hatred towards Shinigamis and their arrogance because of the way they were hunted down, treated, and how their souls were 'cleansed'.  Here, it just feels slapped together because there's no relation to the Shinigamis or Soul Society.  Ginjou just took advantage of these emotionally/psychologically damaged people to do his bidding.

Now that we know the team fullbring is filled with crazies except Jackie, let's get onto the action. D:

icegenie said:
Again, I wouldnt use the word "sociopaths", but yes "bratty, selfish" for Yukio.. Maybe Riruka? but at least she snapped out of it. I still cant understand why Giriko would want to TRY to kill his wife.. Did he hate her to the core or sth? If yes, then I understand. But this wasnt mentioned in the chapter. Most of you are right. If you were to argue that Riruka is to be 'pardoned' because she was '7', then Giriko has no excuse whatsoever. He was a fully grown man, capable of knowing exactly right from wrong. Yet he TRIED to kill his wife just to test his power. "Psychopath" and "Sociopath" dont really fit into this description of his behaviour. These are extreme cases (if you google their definition). The same logic as not all murders are mentally unsound. But yes, Giriko's story was a crazy act and he deserves to lose more than an eye.



As for Jackie, it wouldnt be fair to her.. To associate her with the rest.. Her story is quite sad indeed. Her life was turned upside down in 1 day.



However, IMO, she seems to be one of the nicest in the Xcution gang. The way she trained Ichigo and also, her fight with Renji. She sacrificed herself to save her enemy. That wont come easy if you had a childhood like hers.



Jackie seems to be different than the other, the other Fullbringers are messed up on their own, with Jackie, her dad screwed her family up.



Fai said:
No. thats exactly what YOU are doing.



Thank you for proving my point about you.



Fai said:
So far I have argumented every single statement I said, while you generally come with "no its not that!" without even bringing anything new into discussion.



That's exactly what you just did.



Fai said:
Should I collect a list of quotes where you dismiss someone's arguments by repeating same stuff over and over again or when you resort to logical fallacies?  No?



I can do the exact same thing with your quotes.



Fai said:
Thank you for providing a perfect example of your "debating skills" :)



Fai said:
No. thats exactly what YOU are doing.



No, thank you for once again proving my point about you and your so-called debating skills.



Fai said:
Giriko's flashback itself said that he lost his eye because for a single moment he wanted to stop and NOT do it.



Which doesn't make any sense seeing as how he killed her for no good reason in the 1st place.



Fai said:
Yukio's flashback itself said that his parents sort of despised him for not turning out the way THEY wanted. Cue him creating virtual parents and shutting off completely.



Yukio refused to talk to them, he completely shut them out and shunned himself from his family.



Fai said:
Except that most of children do behave that way  and its generally thought that one has issues if he is TOO CALM. Children up until certain age have no understanding of moral concepts that society they live in follows.  Every child at first and foremost is selfish being. Riruka just happened to also have powers.



Yes its exactly the same, but with powers. Its no different than her taking someone's doll and hiding it in the house or trying to not let their parents leave for work.



That situation isn't even close to Riruka kidnapping, shrinking, and hold a guy hostage inside a box.  The one you described is totally different, most children are selfish, but Riruka takes it to the extreme.  This is kidnapping, the situations you described is dishonesty and selfishness, none of which is close to the hostage situation that Riruka put that poor guy through.



Fai said:
No he just made money by beating people with his powers, was involved in some crime stuff, acted like a jerk from time to time and if not for the death of his uncle, he would have remained a jerk who misuses his powers as he wants and probably would have ended up on entirely opposite side of the fight than he is now.



No, he beats up criminals, that's not a criminal activity.  He wasn't a jerk, he was discovering his powers.  His uncle's death was the whole catalyst for him being saving people.



Peter Parker didn't kill anyone for no good reason, he didn't kidnap/hold anyone hostage, he didn't isolate himself and shut other people out.



The situation is completely different no matter how much you try to twist it, Peter is nothing like these mentally disturbed sociopath.

Yes, for the first time I agree with you, based on the current chapter, Kubo has not provided enough details regarding the backstory of the fullbringers.. How the shinigamis are fitted into the picture.. At this point in time, I'm beginning to wonder if they were all brought together by Ginjo's 'sweet talking'.. Since Ginjo was the first substitute Shinigami, and was (I would guess) kicked out of his role, he might have been gathering comrades for this long-awaited fight.



As for Riruka, yes, I wouldn't say she was remorseful but not bored either.. She just realized that the outcome wasn't as expected.. At least she managed to snap out of her obsession.. But I don't see any reason for revenge or sorts from her flashback..



It was mentioned that this 'fullbring' is a contract.. Their actions might have something to do with this 'contract' rather than revenge..

As "interesting" as expected