Arashi89 said:
What?! And how does that make him more human?! He killed his wife in cold blood!! Are you implying that murder is a humane act?!
Yes.
Humanity is the only animal in this planet to have an intent to kill beyond self-preservation. Its our nature to kill each other. The very first story of brothers in old testament mythology alone was about murder. :)
Arashi89 said:
The problem here isn't power and the way someone uses it, it's the complete lack of empathy of most FBs. Just because you don't know how to use abilities, it doesn't mean you have the right to kill pepole, you have morality and society rules that forbid you to do so. Yet most Fullbringers decided to reject all of those for their own petty and insane beliefs, and they grew up as assasins and social recluses.
Morality? Society rules? Black and white logic again. Society rules and morals change every day and every moment. Few decades ago for a woman to enter a library or university was counted as immoral.
In the core essence we all are animals.
Arashi89 said:
I agree that the way SS used its power to establish what is basically a feudal militar dictatorship, but FBs don't really stand on moral high ground either.
And they are not trying to. They are trying to gain power, the difference, as I said is that FB's KNOW their own arrogance and do not try to sugarcoat their own goals. NO ONE has an upper moral side anytime.
AS shunsui said "in war everyone is a villain". The main core worldview of bleach has always been gray/gray morality system.
And while FBs might be dicks and etc, in this very argument Riruka was having with Rukia, SS is the wrong one.
Machuran said:
No, that's like saying a serial killer/rapist is just a personal flaw. In this example, he outright killed someone without any good reason. These people are messed up to the point where they need to see a psychiatrist or get institutionalized.
No murder has a good reason. To kill each other is embedded in our genes.
The only ones to say they are completely sane and mean it are the truly insane. Every person in this world is messed up and flawed. The difference is how each other hides that from others. Every killer has its reasons and path he took or was forced to take, unless he is insane.
Giriko never thought most likely that his power would work and when he did he wanted to stop that happening and lost his eye for that.
Riruka tried to use her power for love and instead lost that person forever and ever.
Yukio replaced his own parents who were disappointed in him with the virtual ones.
FBs essentially all "peter parkers without eh whole power=responsibility motto".
Machuran said:
Wrong, these incidents have nothing to do with Shinigamis.
Directly? NO. Thematically yes.
FB's misused their powers, are arrogant and KNOW AND REALIZE IT.
Shinigam i misue their powers, are arrogant and hypocritically sugarcoat it.
THats why FBs are angered by SHinigami "logic".
Machuran said:
They're misdirecting their hatred because their own lives are messed up.
HAven't seen even one FB display pure hatred yet.
RIruka was pissed off at Rukia purely because of Rukia's "Shinigami and SS are righteous" bullshit.
Machuran said:
They isolated themselves
Just as shinigami isolate themselves beyond the high walls of seireitei.
Machuran said:
and chose not to fit in.
They had no choice. Society and life chose for them. Shinigami had choice.
Machuran said:
This isn't like X-Men where the mutants are hunted down and shunned from the rest of society.
This has nothing to do with why FBs don't like SS.
Machuran said:
These Fullbringers did this to themselves (well, except Jackie, that was her dad's fault).
Hence why they are NOT blaming the shinigami for that. They are blaming and hate Shinigami for their own self-arrogance - something FB's went through themselves.
Machuran said:
They're both arrogant, you're just trying to justify the Fullbringers' actions.
Quote me where I did that?
IN THIS VERY case, Riruka's argument is correct one and Rukia's actions are wrong.
In overall, the whole setting, THERE's no black or white. As I said before, bleach is gray morality manga through and through ever since rescue rukia stuff.
Machuran said:
The Shinigamis use their powers to follow orders as part of their duties as arrogant as that may be.
Embodying selective social darwinism.
Machuran said:
Misusing powers would be like someone robbing a bank or becoming the most powerful being on Earth.
And building an authocratic feudal regime, experimenting on souls, caring less than shit about the infinity of souls they are supposed to take care of, doing inhuman experiments, genocide and god knows what is not misusing power?
Everyone misuses power. Even Ichigo does.
Machuran said:
The Fullbringers are just taking out their problems on Shinigamis, when they have nothing to do with their own personal issues.
They are not. Ginjou is. Fullbringers are there because they DO NOT like Shinigami position and because they want to topple them to gain a similar position themselves. The difference is that one side is hypocrites other side is not.
Machuran said:
The arrancars at least had a reason to hate the Shinigamis because of what they do to hollows.
Thats because that was more direct conventional conflict, not a theoretical one.
If there's any form of afterlife(which I doubt), Budha and Hitler are currently clawing each others eyes out. Why? They never did anything to each other directly. Ideology.
Machuran said:
The Fullbringers have no good reason be high and mighty against the Shinigamis.
They have ONE reason. They are not hypocrites. They know that what they do is wrong and that what they do they do for power.
Machuran said:
he point of this flashback was just a pity party for these people with messed up lives.
No.
Machuran said:
The problem is that it's disconnected from the current situation.
Conceptional Yes. Morally NO. Shinigami intervention itself connects to the moral clash they are having.
Machuran said:
Their personal problems have nothing to do with the Shinigamis
They have to do with their worldviews, which is exactly why RIruka is pissed off at Rukia. She is not blaming Rukia for her own past.
Machuran said:
maybe Ginjou easily manipulated them like he did with Ichigo,
HE obviously did or maybe he meant everything he said because of what he experienced. Remains to be seen.
