Vampire Knight Chapter 92 Discussion

yunaleia said:
In VK, the *vampire* part, Yuukis accendence came at the proposed time when a major plot device was introduced to bring back. The *knight* part was delayed far, far, far too late. How as a writer can you have such a flimsy story line as to allow the LT to continue for too long, as stated by numerous other posters here, to the point where Zeki shippers were left on tenterhooks until chapter 89 of 93 to finally be shot down with *that* scene. It's rediculous. If the LT had been affectively neutered during the time skip it would have been far easier to stomach for all involved and reading the rest would have been edible. As it is now, its like warm sour milk. Horrible to look at and even worse to digest and smell ...



[...]



As for the "lapdog" scenario ... how is he not? Forget points of view and opinions. Look at the cold hard facts. Lost his parents to vampires. Vampires released by Kaname ... Kaname knew of Yuukis past and strived to not wake her and left this responsibility to Zero during the day because he could not ... The story in the second arc is just convoluted and in disarray. Zero making his own choices is a Get out of Jail Free card played to make it appear he is moving on. It's a cheap plot device to apparently end his seething hatred of vampires ... More overly purebloods, but honestly I can't see it ... It wouldn't have happened this way and somehow I get the impression Hino knew this when she ran the LT too far beyond being acceptable.



I really agree with this.



The people who dislike Zero always point to Zero's hatred for vampires as a reason not to like him.  He can't let go; he can't move on.  As a fan of the character, I also wanted him to let go and move on.  It would have been better for him as a person, and it would have gotten the *knight* part of the story moving much sooner.



HOWEVER, we now find out the ugly truth of it all: Zero's hatred for vampires was necessary for the love triangle.



Because he was needed for a terrible love triangle, Zero couldn't let go of his hatred for vampires any sooner than this.  The main impediment to Zeki was Zero's hatred.  If Zero accepted vampires, accepted Yuuki, and accepted himself, but still couldn't be with Yuuki, then that would be the end of Zeki.  No more love triangle, Zero is free to move on to bigger and better things.



And that's exactly what happened in chapter 92.  Zero seemingly accepts his vampire nature.  He promises not to run away from his feelings for Yuuki anymore and essentially forgives Kaname (more on this later).  But none of that was to run into Yuuki's arms, it was to push Kaname toward her.  Love triangle broken.



Hurrah!  Now Zero gets ONE CHAPTER to be *the knight*.  (And actually, I fear he's not even going to get that much since I got the feeling the manga was pretty much done with him after his big scene with Kaname.)



Zero could have accepted his feelings for Yuuki and moved on in ANY chapter of the manga after the time skip.  There was no big event here in 92 that caused him to change his mind.  Yuuki didn't suddenly prove herself to him or anything like that.  He just changed his mind to change his mind.  Why not make that happen sooner?



And this is the other part of the problem: If Zero's hatred for vampires was what kept the love triangle going, then Zero giving up his hatred was the move used to legitimize the other pairing.



Of all the characters in the manga, Zero has the most reason to dislike Kaname.  But by having Zero reach out to Kaname (and in that gesture, essentially forgive him of his crimes), then all of us get to feel OK about a KanaYuuki ending because gosh!  Zero is making his own decisions!



How naive and foolish.  It would have been far more realistic for Zero to give up his hatred of vampires and have an unspoken tolerance for Kaname simply for Yuuki's sake.  He didn't need to reach out to Kaname.  Because Kaname's crime against Zero was too great for him to forgive (no one in Zero's position would ever forgive the person who destroyed his family), and because Kaname never asked for Zero's forgiveness, so it wasn't necessary for Zero to grant it.  



So the mangaka should have just left it alone.  It would have been kinder to Zero's character.  But no.  Instead Zero not only asks Kaname to fight with him (as a comrade), but he insists it's his own choice to protect Kaname and pushes him toward Yuuki.  



Why make Zero go so far, if not for Zero's sake?  Because all of this is essentially giving Kaname permission to live at the end of the series.  (Can't have a happy, shippy ending without him.)  If Kaname's biggest victim forgives him, then the character no longer needs redemption.  There's nothing Kaname needs to make up for anymore.  Aidou's dad is alive and Zero is making his own decisions!



As someone who wanted MORE from this series than pairings, and who wanted MORE from Zero than to just be the foil to a love triangle (the Kuran's lapdog), it is very, very depressing.

S-ER said:
Even if you're a Zeki shipper,I don't really understand how you'd want a Zeki ending now.Do people really think it'd make the manga better?In these last few chapters Yuki didn't really seem to care much about Zero,and nothing at all about his feeling,and she has stuck with Kaname through it all and he was basically everything she has been thinking about,you really want her in one chapter switch to someone else?really?that would not be convincing at all and would possibly make the worst ending in history,if Zero and Yuuki were to happen,it should have happened before,not now.

But shippers really are the same in the end (well most) and this goes to both sides,they care more about their ship than the quality of the manga and it could ruin the manga in the end..







Clearly You haven't been reading the latest myanimelist VK threads.

Because In case you haven´t noticed the majority of Zeki fans ceased to exist, and became solely "Zero shippers". I would suggest you at least to read from the beginning this thread.

This is not about "caring about our ship more than the quality of manga" anymore, simply because, there is no quality at all, regardless of whom she ends up. All fans here regardless of being Zero/Zeki/Yume/Kaname seem to agree on that. Do you honestly think that Yuuki ending up with Zero would "ruin the manga at the end"? The manga is ruined for a long time, filled with illogical inconsistencies, null character development, bad executed plot and the only thing that didnt get lower and improved was the art. So in your perspective Yuuki ending up with Kaname makes a "good quality ending".

LOL. sorry, but, no. At this point even if Yuuki ended up with Aidou, nothing will raise the quality of this manga. It is filled with so many flaws, and its not really the characters fault but the one who made them that way, Hino Matsuri, who wasnt able to build a solid plot and ended up making just another generic shoujo.

Kaname "the illogical manipulative anti-hero", Zero "the emo lapdog", Yuuki "the useless brat".

In one thing I agree with you though: we all would like to see our favorite character with a happy end. Sometimes a happy end to a character is not synonymous of ending up with the heroine.



Go check my previous posts. Im supporting Yume, precisely because Im a Zero shipper. He deserves someone who loves him wholeheartedly, and that is why at least in that, I agree with you: she should stay with Kaname since she clearly refused Zero for the second time. I really don't want this to end up like Inuyasha where "I didn't chose. Let me stay with the one who didn't die".



In resume: If she ends up with Kaname I'll rage. If she ends up with Zero I'll fucking rage even more. Still, regardless of my rage, the low quality of this manga will remain till the end, because one single chapter could not fill the flaws that begun since chapter 49.



Still, we cannot blame Zeki shippers. They just want Zero to be happy and their perspective, Zero's happiness is staying at the only person he ever loved, and that is why I cannot oppose to that. He would be happy regardless of her loving him less than Kaname, he wouldn't mind. that actually pisses me off

Ana93 said:
inzaratha said:
See,  I also thought him being able to stop being so angry was a personal accomplishment for him.   

The purpose of forgiveness is not something you are giving to the other person -  No, most people have a very poor understanding of forgiveness.   

You forgive not for the other person at all really, at a deep level what being able to forgive gives you the ability to release that anger and move on with your life - it makes you be able to release the bond that is created with another person through hatred,  which is the worst type of bond cause it keeps an attachment on your person with the person who has committed a grave crime or offense against you.



I think that only those of us who have had a horrible crime committed against them or have witnessed someone being freed from a bond of hatred by forgiving the other person can really understand it.



What Zero is doing here is NOT for Kaname -  NO not at all - This is Zero being able to move on and not be angry ALL the time.    Its  Zero growing up.   It has nothing to do with Kaname,  it is Zero saying - I'm not going to be stuck in the past anymore since the past is the past - I'm moving on.



I really, really agree with your definition of forgiveness.  Forgiveness is a gift you give to yourself, not to the other person.  That's why I want to see Zero's actions in the last chapter as personally liberating for him, I really do.  And I do think on some level they are, but my problem is that I think it's only on a very superficial level.  Enough to make us feel like Zero has just had a major breakthrough (when really the whole purpose of the speech was to give Yuuki a happy ending, not to truly evolve Zero as a character).



Part of the problem is that I think there wasn't enough build-up to Zero's forgiveness speech to make it seem natural, and not something the author was forcing onto the character.  Characters either have a major change of heart because something big happens to them and it triggers a change in their thinking, or there's a slow build-up to it with lots of little things happening before they finally change their minds.



In Zero's case, Kaname didn't come to him and apologize, which would have been a major event that encouraged Zero to forgive him.  Up until he got his memories taken away, Zero was helping Yuuki chase him down, so there wasn't gradual build-up to it either.  Only a short amount of time has passed in the manga (a couple of weeks maybe?) since he found out that Kaname plotted for his family to die, and he didn't take the news all that well at the time.  So there was no chance for him to gradually decide to forgive Kaname either.  He's been gradually accepting vampires this whole time, but accepting vampires is not the same thing as forgiving Kaname.



I think the main reason why he forgave Kaname in this chapter has nothing to do with Zero's own feelings.  It's because Kaname is going to die and poor Yuuki will be all alone!  (God forbid she should have to stand on her own two feet for once in her life.)  And Yuuki's happiness is more important than Zero's own feelings.



Most of what Zero said to Kaname had to do with Yuuki, in fact.  The bit about him making his own choices was only tacked on at the very end of his speech.



And that's the other part of the problem: If the majority of the speech had been about Zero himself, and how he had come to this realization and was moving on, then yes, absolutely, I would agree with you that this was a decision he was making for himself and for his own good, and I would be at peace with the decision.



But almost everything he said was Yuuki, Yuuki, Yuuki:  Kaname doesn't think he has a right to be with her, but his actions are hurting her, she will be sad if he's not around, so come protect the school for her sake, and BTW, Zero is doing this because he wants to.  His speech ultimately had more to do with encouraging Kaname to live than it did with Zero's choice to move on from his hatred.



So that's why, to me, what Zero said was indeed more for Kaname's sake than for his own.  Or should I say, for romance's sake than his own.  If Kaname lives, then Yuuki ends up with a guy at the end of the manga, and that's what this manga truly cares about.  (Obviously not its plot or characterization.)



Hmmmm. Good explanation - I now get that this is about how people are angry that once again character development is less of a priority than the romance. Sigh. I'm going to ignore Hino's bad writing here and focus on the fact that letting go of his hate, regardless of the reason, is good for Zero but yeah, I can understand people's disappointment now...



Unfortunately like Orulyon I can't rate this manga high either - even if Hino writes an ending I love it'd get a low score from me because the plot and character development has been ridiculous for the majority of this manga. I really hope Hino improves with her next manga because her art is incredibly beautiful and she creates interesting characters. Anyway, for people looking to read a vampire manga which is funny and entertaining with no irritating endless love triangles I recommend Chibi Vampire Karin. It has its flaws like any manga but I'd rate it over Vampire Knight any day of the week :)

The LT was a honey trap for readers in the west who thought that the non standard ending ship could be anything other than Yume. I say it this way because it reminds me too much of Blood+ in which the ending pair was decided somewhere around the middle of the entire story.



In VK, the *vampire* part, Yuukis accendence came at the proposed time when a major plot device was introduced to bring back. The *knight* part was delayed far, far, far too late. How as a writer can you have such a flimsy story line as to allow the LT to continue for too long, as stated by numerous other posters here, to the point where Zeki shippers were left on tenterhooks until chapter 89 of 93 to finally be shot down with *that* scene. It's rediculous. If the LT had been affectively neutered during the time skip it would have been far easier to stomach for all involved and reading the rest would have been edible. As it is now, its like warm sour milk. Horrible to look at and even worse to digest and smell ...



As for Zero ... the mans been through enough in a short space of time. A woman he loved, was something he had always hated. His worst enemy, became his only source of survival. And to top it off, he now knows that the woman he loved can never be his (he bit Yuuki to regain his memories but I'll be damned if he didn't see more than just that). But the knight is always chivalrous and will always give himself up for the needs of others. Yuuki is lucky ... I would have stabbed her ... and so to I believe many others given similar circumstances.



As for the "lapdog" scenario ... how is he not? Forget points of view and opinions. Look at the cold hard facts. Lost his parents to vampires. Vampires released by Kaname ... Kaname knew of Yuukis past and strived to not wake her and left this responsibility to Zero during the day because he could not ... The story in the second arc is just convoluted and in disarray. Zero making his own choices is a Get out of Jail Free card played to make it appear he is moving on. It's a cheap plot device to apparently end his seething hatred of vampires ... More overly purebloods, but honestly I can't see it ... It wouldn't have happened this way and somehow I get the impression Hino knew this when she ran the LT too far beyond being acceptable.



93 better be long and cheery for all involved. That way we can scruntinise the storyline wholy rather than concluding in the last chapter that it was a complete waste of time ... which it still may be.l

For vampire theme, I believe one of my favs was Record of the fallen vampire, where we have a successful "Kaname" (and the ancestress there has a name, yay) and well, the heroine is named Yuki (Kayuki to be more precise), but she is a freaking badass. Also to those who enjoy more mature stuff and lots and lots of bishies, Bloody Cross is good (got licensed this week by Yen press).





anyway...



KANAME, AND ZERO FANS NEXT MONTH FINALLY THE END. Regardless of the end...We must party;D

sigh ^ I totally agree with you..

One chapter isn't enough to set things right..



I'm hoping for Zeki ending but  
yuuki slept with kaname..If it will be zeki ending, I pity Zero because it feels like yuuki loves kaname



I have a feeling it will be a lame ending :|

Randomxxxx said:
Eridanus10 said:


Ms. Hino should just let everyone survive and disappoint no one since the plot is definitely rushed and killing Kaname now will enrage both Zero and Kaname fans unless Zero leaves Yuki alone (lol) forever . Moreover if Yuki moves on to Zero after Kaname's death that will make her the most hated protagonist in history .

I don't understand why people think this way. Just because Kaname loves Yuuki doesn't mean she can't move on after his death. Killing Kaname now is the best option for the manga(but don't worry that won't happen because Matsuri Hino is writing solely  to please the fans). What will make Yuuki the most hated protagonist in history(if she hasn't become one already) is if she continues to be with the man who toyed with her friend's life. I am not a shipper or a fan of any of the characters anymore. Hino destroyed everything for me in chapter89 but Zeki is the only good thing that can happen in the manga at this point. It will bring together the theme of coexistence and give a positive message. Zero despite being an idiot and the Kurans' lapdog has frankly never done anything immoral. He is trying to save Kaname and if Yuuki ends up with Zero that won't make her a bad person. Making a yume ending will demolish all the character and plot development and will make the creation of the second arc redundant. But at the end of the day I know Hino will make this a yume end(it's obvious she's selling out to please the fans and killing her story in the process) and the story will suck regardless of the ending(though it will suck a little less if the ending is Zeki).



Despite being a Kaname fan I don't hate Zero (unlike all the Zero fans) . It has been quite obvious that Kaname has always been given preference over Zero by Ms. Hino therefore Zero deserves someone better than Yuki rather than being her SECOND choice . But imo Kaname will die T T and it will be a Zeki ending . I don't understand why people think Zero is the only one who had a tough life , every character has faced unfortunate situations so Zero shouldn't be the only target of sympathies . I don't hate Yuki but since she has chosen to be with Kaname she should stick to him and if she moves onto Zero immediately after Kaname's death I wouldn't spare her of criticism.

About Zero being Kaname's lapdog , Zero is an independent person and can do anything he wants and he has chosen to protect Kaname since he knows that Kaname has the best intentions for both Yuki and the humans . It's good that Zero has finally let go of whatever that has happened and is making the right decisions rather than acting like a little brat still holding grudges about the past .

I don't think Kaname will die, Yuuki and Kaname shippers will have their happy end, and I am happy, Zero deserve someone better than Yuuki.