Bleach Chapter 619 Discussion

Trollzen said:
Why do people think that Ywach has said the same thing as Aizen? Aizen said that he planned everything that happened to Ichigo. What Ywach was saying is that everything Ichigo did was to his benefit. (In this case the result being Ichigo end up killing the Soul king) But if you don't really care about the Manga it is easy to think they said the same thing.



But it will be interesting, if Ichigo's and Ywach's will is connected then Ywach should be able to control him in some ways. But Ichigo is not just a quincy so he shouldn't be able to control him, but then why mention it?



I'm not sure where you read the chapter, but you missed some pretty vital bits of their conversation.  The first page of it basically says what you are saying...



Bach:  Do you follow?

Bach:  That is because...  There is no need to even think about it.

Bach:  Your will everything, it is connected to my will.



Ichigo:  What do you mean...



Bach:  What I'm saying... Is that you have been fighting all this time for me.



Bach:  When you awakened as a Shinigami your fight was with yourself, battling to

increase your own power...

Bach:  Icreasing your own power so that you could defeat Aizen Sousuke.

Bach:  And then...  You once again reclaimed...  the power to defeat Aizen Sousuke,

which you had lost...  By cutting down the Spirit King before my eyes!



Then it is interrupted by Yoruichi...



Yoruichi:  It's a trick, Ichigo!  Don't let him confuse you!



Bach:  And which part of what I said is a trick?!



Bach:  Without even having to think about it...  I can still see, clear as day,

the image of you dancing for me as I pulled the strings...  No matter what you

may think, everything you have done...  Was with my consent ...All of it...

Bach:  It is all because you and I, Ichigo...  We have the same blood flowing

through our veins!



This part is Bach telling Ichigo that he's been controlling him the entire time, that everything has been because he allowed it, because he wanted it, that everything Ichigo has been doing was his will.  This is exactly what Aizen told Ichigo during their battle, Aizen said it in a much more sophisticated way with cultured arrogance but it's the same thing, regardless.



What is the difference between saying "I planned everything that has happened to you" and "I have been pulling your strings the entire time"?  Nothing other than the words used to form the sentence.

yhunata said:
ichii_1 said:
Whitey is both his hollow and zanpakuto.

I'm sure anything that happens will be an asspull for you.



Where was this stated? And yes, anything that isn't properly explained and happens just so damn conveniently is an asspull.

Whitey was made by aizen and is similar to an asauchi, so he fused with Ichigo's shinigami powers and became zangetsu.

So he is both his zanpakuto and the source of his hollow power.

Nothing is an asspull unless you want it to be.

yhunata said:
But has it been explained why Uryuu was spared? He's definitely of mixed-blood, after all.



No, but it was brought up by ywach himself as an interesting plot point. When Ishida first joined him Ywach straight out asked him "Why are you still alive despite my Auschwallen? You  have something that may surpass my powers"

ichii_1 said:
yhunata said:
ichii_1 said:
Whitey is both his hollow and zanpakuto.

I'm sure anything that happens will be an asspull for you.



Where was this stated? And yes, anything that isn't properly explained and happens just so damn conveniently is an asspull.

Whitey was made by aizen and is similar to an asauchi, so he fused with Ichigo's shinigami powers and became zangetsu.

So he is both his zanpakuto and the source of his hollow power.

Nothing is an asspull unless you want it to be.



Ichigo's Hollow, which was "gifted" to him because his mother had been hollowfied by "White", IS Zangetsu.  The "old man" Zangetsu we've seen up til that point was actually his inner Quincy powers, explained by the fact that the "old man" looked similar to a young Bach.  Which is why the larger blade represents Zangetsu and the smaller blade represents the manifestation of his Quincy powers.  It could also be used as a way to judge just how much stronger Ichigo is now, the smaller blade being his power up until the point where his sword was broken and the larger being the power he has now on top of the previous power.



As for his bankai, I've seen multiple theories...  I actually stated in another thread that I think it's a good possibility that his new bankai will be the Mugetsu form from the Final Getsuga Tenshou.  I could be wrong, but it's the feeling I get and it would be epic.

Finally get to see Ishida again. Its been awhile.

Honestly, I had no clue what was going on when I first read the chapter and had to read it over five times. After that, I STILL don't get it.



Anyways, I was really hoping they would continue on with Aizen appearing but no, they go back to Bach and he does an Aizen-thing. Then something happens with the Soul King. AND THEN YORUICHI. Idk what happens to her but all and all, the fight was way too confusing.



I felt iffy about Ishida coming to the scene. Am the only one? But yeah, Bach is just so boring to me. Everything about him is like OP and tried to OUT-Aizen everything. I just want answers is all but knowing Kubo, it will be a while...

Damn, that must hurt, poor Yoruichi.

First and foremost:



Ass Pull-



This can also be used to describe when, in a TV show or movie, a character comes up with a never-before-seen power just in the nick of time, therefore winning the fight. An ass pull either has a completely unbelievable explanation or the writer conveniently forgets to add one in.



This is most commonly seen in anime (esp. bleach and sailor moon) where the characters are all about to die, but then one of them (in those two, it's almost always Ichigo or Usagi) goes 'oh wait, I forgot about my superawesomeultramove that can kill all the bad guys'.

When Ichigo learns bankai in three days because...um...well...you see this is why it's an ass pull.



Sailor moon aquires 6 different forms throughout the series (7 if you include her normal form), each being inexplicably more powerful than the last. Why? Because she needed to kill the bad guys who were also getting inexplicably more powerful. What, you didn't expect her to lose, did you?



Superman coming up with his 'super-weaving' ability when he needed to make a wedding dress for some reason. Why? Because all superheroes have super-weaving, they just never use it...



http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Ass+Pull



Now...



When you write bad characters like Bach/Aizen that are supremely powerful and unbeatable, there is only one way to actually defeat them- Asspull or Deus Ex Machina the immortal shit out of it and force it down the fans throats like bad medicine.  For example, Ichigo hits Aizen with the Final Getsuga Tenshou which should have been powerful enough to defeat him but he's immortal so suddenly some binding Urahara slipped in decides to work because he was momentarily weakened.  We were never informed of said binding, it was not foreshadowed at all, and we WERE led to believe that Ichigo had surpassed the power of Aizen and his magical chest marble because Aizen couldn't do anything against Final Asspull Ichigo that wasn't so "final".



It's pretty bad when you look up the word Asspull and out of all of the anime ever made one of the two that is mentioned by name is Bleach.



As for this chapter...  Ishida being able to sneak up on Yoruichi is complete crap, even at his strongest(which I'm sure he is right now) he could never pull that off.  She has been shown to be above the average Captain level even without her zanpakutou, she was the head of the stealth and assassination corps, and her senses on the battlefield are off the charts.  The problem is overuse of "plot armor", Ishida had to come in with a "bang" and Kubo used this cheap shit because it wouldn't have had the same impact if he'd shot Chad or Annoying Goddess Mary-Sue Girl.



Bach's dialogue with Ichigo was just space filler to get us to the Ishida reveal because it's not time for Ichigo to actually really fight Bach yet, the second best trolling you'll ever find only because Aizen did it first.  We all know Ichigo got a power up we've not really seen yet, so it's not really an asspull unless he suddenly pulls out the Quincy powers he's never bothered to learn anything about.  It's not like there was a master Quincy hanging around the zanpakutou guy's place while Ichigo was trying to get his broken sword fixed.  Which, by the way, the entire broken sword bit and it not really being a real zanpakutou was a huge asspull- we've seen zanpakutou get broken many times throughout the series and they always went back to normal soon after and if Ichigo's wasn't really a zanpakutou to begin with why would it getting broken yet again matter?



At this point in the series Trolling, Asspulling, and Deus Ex Machina are all Kubo really knows how to do.  If we really want to see how it ends, we're just stuck with having to deal with it.  Tolerance is not Acceptance, but either way we deal with it because we either have to or we can just give up.  I'm not giving up yet, I'm still hoping for a miracle to make it average again because I don't expect it to get good ever again.