- #58
Bleach Chapter 619 Discussion
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- #59
The_Bif said:
I placed the thread within spoiler tags to save space and people's eyes.
Viz is the "official translation", but it's companies like Viz that are the reason I stay away from manga or anime that has been "officially" translated into English. I won't watch English dubbed anime, and I don't read the "official" releases of manga by Viz. When you dumb it down, make it so completely unoffensive and non-controversial to virtually every possible type of person that could read it, it takes away the power and meaning of the words. There is an art to translating Japanese into English without mucking it up, if you take too many liberties as Viz does you lose power and meaning but if you are too literal it does not read right. It is all about finding that balance, the ability to literally translate it AND make it read right for the English language. I've compared a number of sources, this translation and the the translation I gave in my earlier comments are the only two going around with the translation I gave being the most prevalent and accepted of the two in discussion forums. I'm not giving out the source of my translation because I assume the rules for the manga threads are the same as with anime, no unofficial sub groups or translations are allowed to be listed here.
However, that is more an argument of preference than anything. Viz has the label "official" so I guess that makes them "right". So, let's look at it this way...
In the way it is presented here, it was all done for Bach's gain the conversation comes off more as a joke than anything. It makes Bach sound like he's run out of things to say and is just trying to throw Ichigo off, which is a theory that others have presented as well. It could also be taken as you said earlier, that he's talking about "fate". If that is the case, we just go back to the definition of "fate" that I copied earlier:
Fate: the development of events beyond a person's control, regarded as determined by a supernatural power.
or as a verb: be destined to happen, turn out, or act in a particular way.
I would assume that, going by the way Bach was speaking to Ichigo in this translation, that it would be "fate" as a verb- destined to happen. In which case we'll go back to my definition of "destined" from earlier as well...
Destined: (of a person's future) developing as though according to a plan.
So, if it's developing as though according to a plan it would mean that Bach would be the great or supernatural power behind the plan. In this case, if Bach was indeed the power behind the plan that was Ichigo's "fate", then telling this to Ichigo, whether you say it as he did in the Viz translation or in the translation I gave, it means the same thing. Bach has been "guiding" Ichigo's life from the start, a safe assumption considering he says they are of the same blood and the inner manifestation of Ichigo's Quincy power is the Bach from 1000 years ago.
Now we go back and take a look at Aizen's speech during the battle with Ichigo... Aizen tells Ichigo that everything he's done has played right into his hand, and explains that he was the one who set all of the events into motion that led him to that very moment.
So, everything Ichigo did played into Aizen's hand and was done for Bach's gain, because Aizen set all of the events into motion yet he was fighting for Bach the entire time. No matter how you spin it, they're both telling him the same shit.
On a side note, I wonder if Bach acting like Aizen could have something to do with how Aizen screwed with his "time" when he went down to talk to him?
You're stubborn
just admit, that's not the same shit
Whatever we do will you still stubborn
Really? After I've already proven my point no matter how you try to spin it, that's all you can say? Your name says all I really need to know, your a Bach fan- which means you're going to hold onto your bias no matter what evidence is shown to you, as you've done here, and project onto those of us who are not blinded by that bias all of the problems that you, yourself, should really come to terms with.
At first I was enjoying this debate, the back and forth was quite nice compared to the usual crap I get when I try to discuss anime episodes in their threads. But, I see now how futile it is. It seems that all reason is beyond your blind loyalty to what could have been a much better character had Kubo not written him so much like Aizen. Aizen was bad enough on his own, with all of his "you played into my hands" and "it's all according to plan, so watch me turn into a pretty, pretty butterfly" crap. Then, right after Bach shows up with some brilliant strategy we find out that while he was visiting Aizen, Aizen managed to mess up his "time" just to show that he's still the strongest character in the series. This completely degraded the image of Bach we were being presented, and it did not help matters any that the army of Quincy gave up their Quincy pride and weapons for goofy abilities that make the Fullbringers look good. Then Bach starts demonstrating how Aizen he is by showing off his "all powerful" Quincy-God powers and eyes that see everything, repeating over and over "these eyes of mine" like it's the only phrase he knows before giving Ichigo the same spiel Aizen did back when they fought with the "it was all for my gain, you've been fighting for me this entire time, it all happened because I allowed it, blah blah blah" crap.
It almost seems like Kubo realized very early that he was putting together a villain better than Aizen, so he quickly had to turn the potential better than Aizen character into a "I'm almost as good as Aizen, but he's still stronger so I'm going to talk like him and hope everyone believes me" douchebag.
I'll be reading the new chapter later, so I'm done here. Hopefully you've learned something, but I doubt it.
- #60
We were shown how his two swords are represented by the two Zangetsus respectively , considering how in Bankai both will change shape maybe that's a fair preditction. In other words:
"Asspull"?Not really since we've been shown all this
"Messiah/Chosen one" stereotype? Absolutely.
I think yhunata's criticism was more about the predictability of Bleach's basic formula and the word asspull was misused. Hopefully I'm right and this cleared up the misunderstanding and we can have a bit more contrsuctive criticism.
That said, my opinion of this chapter is the same as everyone else. Ywach's speech made it horrible. His only reasoning/explanation behind said contrivedness was something allong the lines of "fate" which is the equivalent of saying Kubo "God's will"...which is the same as simply stating things and expecting the reader to buy into it without any good writting to back it up.
As for the idea that he is lying and using psychological warfare....well, I ain't buying it. There is no indication that Ywach is in fact lying(no matter how small or subtle) and even if it is it STILL is Aizen-wannabe.
- #63
ichii_1 said:
Just stop.
Lol you expected Yoruichi to even scratch his Majesty? XD lmfao XD
And Ichigo is currently being lectured by Yhwach about his softness, that's what the whole talk was about.
And the gang is currently on hold since against yhwach they can't win, they'll fight the RG (who lost on purpose I bet) or We Dem Boyz.
Yoruichi is supposed to be one of the strongest characters in this series, a master at hand-to-hand combat and ninja.... yet she somehow can't sense an arrow coming her way or notice a huge-ass pile of shit nobody sneaking up behind her.
Ichigo is an idiot, since he's apparently been used by others his entire life. Literally nothing he's done was done because he wanted to, but because Aizen/Ywach planned that he would.
And the rest of the gang is plain useless. It's pointless to even argue about that.... other than Orihime with her currently useless "Death is nothing" move.
ichii_1 said:
Bankai is a 10x multiplier, he has hollow and quincy powers, at best he'll stalemate for now, haschwalt, uryuu and yhwach is too much.
More training , yeahhh XD
What hollow? Don't you mean his "Zanpakutou"? Apparently you forgot but Whitey's not his hollow, according to Kubo. And Quincy powers are exactly what I meant by bullshit power-up.
- #65
JUHABACH said:
The_Bif said:
JUHABACH said:
The_Bif said:
Trollzen said:
Why do people think that Ywach has said the same thing as Aizen? Aizen said that he planned everything that happened to Ichigo. What Ywach was saying is that everything Ichigo did was to his benefit. (In this case the result being Ichigo end up killing the Soul king) But if you don't really care about the Manga it is easy to think they said the same thing.
But it will be interesting, if Ichigo's and Ywach's will is connected then Ywach should be able to control him in some ways. But Ichigo is not just a quincy so he shouldn't be able to control him, but then why mention it?
I'm not sure where you read the chapter, but you missed some pretty vital bits of their conversation. The first page of it basically says what you are saying...
Bach: Do you follow?
Bach: That is because... There is no need to even think about it.
Bach: Your will everything, it is connected to my will.
Ichigo: What do you mean...
Bach: What I'm saying... Is that you have been fighting all this time for me.
Bach: When you awakened as a Shinigami your fight was with yourself, battling to
increase your own power...
Bach: Icreasing your own power so that you could defeat Aizen Sousuke.
Bach: And then... You once again reclaimed... the power to defeat Aizen Sousuke,
which you had lost... By cutting down the Spirit King before my eyes!
Then it is interrupted by Yoruichi...
Yoruichi: It's a trick, Ichigo! Don't let him confuse you!
Bach: And which part of what I said is a trick?!
Bach: Without even having to think about it... I can still see, clear as day,
the image of you dancing for me as I pulled the strings... No matter what you
may think, everything you have done... Was with my consent ...All of it...
Bach: It is all because you and I, Ichigo... We have the same blood flowing
through our veins!
This part is Bach telling Ichigo that he's been controlling him the entire time, that everything has been because he allowed it, because he wanted it, that everything Ichigo has been doing was his will. This is exactly what Aizen told Ichigo during their battle, Aizen said it in a much more sophisticated way with cultured arrogance but it's the same thing, regardless.
What is the difference between saying "I planned everything that has happened to you" and "I have been pulling your strings the entire time"? Nothing other than the words used to form the sentence.
Ywach means quincy power Ichigo (old man) come from Ywach
what is problem if he said the same words, that's mean his planned everything not the liar Aizen
When did Aizen lie? You call him a liar, but when and where did Aizen lie? When he said that he'd controlled and pulled all of the strings in Ichigo's life? Sorry, but he actually has proven that he manipulated Ichigo's life since birth and one could argue that Ichigo was born because of Aizen's manipulation in the first place. Aizen hollowfied a quincy as part of his experiments, but I doubt it was just coincidence that Urahara and Isshin just happen to be around for it. Aizen knows that Urahara is the only man who is smarter than him, so he would have known that Urahara would intervene in some way. He also would have known that a Captain just happened to be in the area when it happened, and used that opportunity to see how a Captain would fare against his hollowfication experiment. Once he had all of that information, it would be simple to predict what would happen and he'd only have to wait for the "perfect specimen" to be born. Then just as Ichigo's powers were started to mature he arranged for Rukia to be sent to the real world and for Grand Fisher to stumble upon Ichigo's trail. Then he arranged for the Gillian to attack at just the right time in Ichigo's development, for Renji and Byakuya to appear at just the time when Ichigo needed that next step in his development. Everything was planned and arranged by Aizen.
The inner manifestation of Ichigo's quincy powers, the "old man" Zangetsu tried to keep Ichigo from becoming a Shinigami. He held back Ichigo's powers until he realized he could not stop Ichigo, and then gave him only enough power to do what needed to be done. This all by the "old man"'s own admission. If Ichigo is connected to Bach's will, and Bach has been "allowing" everything that's heppened then he's failed miserably at being as smart as he thinks he is and shown just how arrogant he really is.
Bach admitting that he controlled Ichigo's will, that he "allowed" everything to happen, is like admitting that he knew from the start that he had no chance in hell and is admitting it now so he has a good excuse when he loses later.
My problem is with the very fact that Kubo decided to make Bach an Aizen wannabe in the first place, Bach could have been a great villain on his own without having to copy the previous villain. Where's the diversity?
OK
what about this
ichii_1 said:
Lol Yhwach never said he planned anything XD
It was all predetermined by destiny/fate.
Lol people can't even read these days.
So, that one page from a previous chapter is supposed to dismiss what he just said in this chapter? Bach literally just said in this chapter:
Bach: Without even having to think about it... I can still see, clear as day,
the image of you dancing for me as I pulled the strings...
"you dancing for me as I pulled the strings" If he's pulling the strings then it's not "fate" or "destiny", it's manipulation/control. It's literally the same meaning as what Aizen said, only with different words.
"Pull The Strings"- also pull somebody's strings
to control the actions of a person or group, often secretly.
That is the definition of the idiom Bach used. Now here is "fate":
Fate: the development of events beyond a person's control, regarded as determined by a supernatural power.
or as a verb: be destined to happen, turn out, or act in a particular way.
Destined: (of a person's future) developing as though according to a plan.
In this case the plan belongs to Bach, and he was pulling the strings by his own admission. Therefore, as I stated above it is literally the same exact meaning as what Aizen told Ichigo in their battle. He just used different words because he's arrogant and believes himself to be some kind of god-like being.[/quote]
OK
what about this
Official translation
Viz