Fai said:
Yes.
Humanity is the only animal in this planet to have an intent to kill beyond self-preservation. Its our nature to kill each other. The very first story of brothers in old testament mythology alone was about murder. :)
No, murder is not humane. People can choose not to kill people, that's what separate us from animals. The Old Testament portrayed that as a bad thing, not a good thing. It showed how jealousy can drive people to murder their own flesh and blood.
Fai said:
Morality? Society rules? Black and white logic again. Society rules and morals change every day and every moment. Few decades ago for a woman to enter a library or university was counted as immoral.
In the core essence we all are animals.
No, that's not black and white logic and that example isn't even close to what the Soul Society it. We are different from animals, it's our ability to make choices that makes us different from other species.
Fai said:
And they are not trying to. They are trying to gain power, the difference, as I said is that FB's KNOW their own arrogance and do not try to sugarcoat their own goals. NO ONE has an upper moral side anytime.
AS shunsui said "in war everyone is a villain". The main core worldview of bleach has always been gray/gray morality system.
Yes they are, the difference is that the Fullbringers shouldn't be the ones judging Shinigamis for their arrogance, especially when their personal problems have nothing to do with the Shinigamis.
Fai said:
And while FBs might be dicks and etc, in this very argument Riruka was having with Rukia, SS is the wrong one.
No, in this instance, Riruka would be the one in the wrong. While Rukia might be considered arrogant, that doesn't make Riruka any better. Riruka is shown to be a selfish, spoiled whiny brat who steals 'cute' things from other people and traps people in boxes because she wants to. She has no good reason for doing so let alone lecturing Shinigamis on their arrogance.
Fai said:
No murder has a good reason. To kill each other is embedded in our genes.
The only ones to say they are completely sane and mean it are the truly insane. Every person in this world is messed up and flawed. The difference is how each other hides that from others. Every killer has its reasons and path he took or was forced to take, unless he is insane.
Except that's not a good reason. By you logic, our society would have completely collapsed by now by mass murders and such. There's a reason why laws exist, to keep the society in order, otherwise it would be pure chaos.
Fai said:
Giriko never thought most likely that his power would work and when he did he wanted to stop that happening and lost his eye for that.
Except he outright murdered his wife for no good reason, even Light Yagami from Death Note had more sense in him to try out his powers on criminals before he went power-crazy.
Fai said:
Riruka tried to use her power for love and instead lost that person forever and ever.
No, she's just a desperate psychopath who kidnapped and almost killed a guy she supposedly had a crush on by starvation in a treasure box.
Fai said:
Yukio replaced his own parents who were disappointed in him with the virtual ones.
He purposely isolated himself from his parents, he chose not to speak with them. He has only himself to blame since he's such a spoiled, rich brat.
Fai said:
FBs essentially all "peter parkers without eh whole power=responsibility motto".
Peter Parker is nothing like these people, he didn't kill his aunt for no good reason by testing out his powers. He chose to help people, using his new found powers for protecting people. That's nothing like the Fullbringers.
Fai said:
Directly? NO. Thematically yes.
FB's misused their powers, are arrogant and KNOW AND REALIZE IT.
Shinigam i misue their powers, are arrogant and hypocritically sugarcoat it.
THats why FBs are angered by SHinigami "logic".
The Shinigamis didn't have anything to do with the Fullbringers whatsoever, they probably never heard of them until Ginjou 'saved' them.
No, they're both arrogant, that doesn't make one better than the other. The Fullbringers shouldn't be lecturing anybody since their own 'logic' doesn't make any sense.
They have no good reason to hate Shinigamis, they have nothing to do with their personal problems.
Fai said:
HAven't seen even one FB display pure hatred yet.
You just said they were angered by the Shinigamis' logic.
Fai said:
RIruka was pissed off at Rukia purely because of Rukia's "Shinigami and SS are righteous" bullshit.
Which is ironic coming from her since she's nothing but a spoiled, whiny, selfish brat. She's shouldn't be lecturing anyone about arrogance, let alone spewing out self-righteous bs considering how she trapped that guy in the box.
Fai said:
Just as shinigami isolate themselves beyond the high walls of seireitei.
No, now you're just throwing everything onto the Shinigamis and placing the blame squarely on them. The high walls are for protection, especially from the hollow attacks.
Fai said:
They had no choice. Society and life chose for them. Shinigami had choice.
The Fullbringers did have a choice. Their life didn't choose. No one forced Giriko to kill anyone, no one forced Riruka to trap that guy in a boy, no one forced Yukio to isolate himself from his parents, Jackie's problem was her dad's fault.
Shinigamis had to work their way up in the Soul Society.
Fai said:
This has nothing to do with why FBs don't like SS.
Neither is your black and white logic of siding with the Fullbringers when they're nothing but a bunch of self-righteous hypocrites themselves. My example was meant to draw a comparison between the 2 groups and why the mutants are justified in their actions and why the Fullbringers aren't.
Fai said:
Hence why they are NOT blaming the shinigami for that. They are blaming and hate Shinigami for their own self-arrogance - something FB's went through themselves.
Except they are, they're taking it out on the Shinigamis, not just their arrogance (Fullbringers are arrogant too), but also their personal problems as well.
Fai said:
Quote me where I did that?
IN THIS VERY case, Riruka's argument is correct one and Rukia's actions are wrong.
It's in the tone of your posts where you try to portray the Shinigamis as self-righteous hypocrites when the Fullbringers aren't any better, you try to write off the Fullbringers' actions even going so far as to justify cold-blooded murder.
Fai said:
In overall, the whole setting, THERE's no black or white. As I said before, bleach is gray morality manga through and through ever since rescue rukia stuff.
I never said there was, you're the one who brought up the whole black and white issue in the 1st place.
Fai said:
Embodying selective social darwinism.
Except their personal problems were mostly self-inflicted, that has no connection to Shinigamis.
Fai said:
And building an authocratic feudal regime, experimenting on souls, caring less than shit about the infinity of souls they are supposed to take care of, doing inhuman experiments, genocide and god knows what is not misusing power?
Everyone misuses power. Even Ichigo does.
Last I checked, Ichigo never murdered, kidnapped, embezzled, etc. like the Fullbringers do. The Fullbringers shouldn't be lecturing anyone on morality.
Fai said:
They are not. Ginjou is. Fullbringers are there because they DO NOT like Shinigami position and because they want to topple them to gain a similar position themselves. The difference is that one side is hypocrites other side is not.
The Shinigami position has nothing to do with their problems, Ginjou is probably manipulating them. The Fullbringers are hypocrites for thinking they're any better than the Shinigamis, they're in no position to be talking down to anyone.
Fai said:
Thats because that was more direct conventional conflict, not a theoretical one.
Actually, they do, their kind is being hunted down and 'purified' without given a choice to do so. They at least have better reasons to hold such a position against the Shinigamis' ideals.
Fai said:
If there's any form of afterlife(which I doubt), Budha and Hitler are currently clawing each others eyes out. Why? They never did anything to each other directly. Ideology.
No, all you just did was randomly picked 2 renown figures for very different reasons. They probably never met each nor have they ever had an impact on each other. Why should they care about what the other one thinks. This is entirely different from the scenario with the Fullbringers vs. Shinigamis where there's an actual face to face conflict.
Fai said:
They have ONE reason. They are not hypocrites. They know that what they do is wrong and that what they do they do for power.
No, they aren't. They're complete hypocrites, who are going around lecturing Shinigamis for being arrogant when they themselves aren't any better.
They don't know what they're doing is wrong, they show no sense of remorse or empathy for other people or for their own selfish actions.
Fai said:
No.
Yes.
Fai said:
Conceptional Yes. Morally NO. Shinigami intervention itself connects to the moral clash they are having.
No, the flashbacks only show what they went through and their own personal issues that has nothing to do with the Shinigamis whatsoever hence the disconnect between the current situation and the backstories.
Fai said:
They have to do with their worldviews, which is exactly why RIruka is pissed off at Rukia. She is not blaming Rukia for her own past.
She attacks her for being arrogant when this is coming from a selfish, whiny brat who is only shown to have no empathy for others and has taken things simply for selfish reasons like trapping/starving that poor guy in the box.
Fai said:
HE obviously did or maybe he meant everything he said because of what he experienced. Remains to be seen.
There was obviously no reason to bring in those other Fullbringers, all he needed was Tsukishima, he didn't need to share a bit of Ichigo's fullbring that he stole.
Fai said:
Its not inferiority.
What RIruka is saying is that INDIVIDUAL: strength means nothing.
You do not just survive because YOU are strong, you survive because of your surroundings. EVERYONE separately are just lumps of meat.
while in SS EVERYTHING is based upon one deciding everything.
No, the Fullbringers chose to do what they did. No one forced them to take action, they could have lived a normal life if they chose to, but they didn't.
