Naruto Chapter 501 Discussion

Of course, said forgotten reason and logic is also just, opinion, for even the one that stated forgotten reason and logic is what he/she sees.

Fai said:


You know, when I think about it, Tobi-personalityMadara would have worked as WAY BETTER villain than this.



The current Madara is way too stale, way too perfect and WAY TOO EVIL, to be a realistic villain. He's like goldenage incarnation of Dr.Doom from fantastic four or Dr.Evil from austin powers.







As for hug ending~~~





Read this from up to down, Thats the last chapter of naruto:



http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/6554/73687255.jpg

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/9646/99696197.jpg

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/6567/64563318.jpg

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/7996/58833671.jpg

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/5461/87960827.jpg

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/2482/74547131.jpg



Holy hell, what are you chatting? Way too perfect, way too evil? His plans haven't all gone "according to plan" his  little team was demolished (albeit before zombie versions appeared, but they aren't as useful as the original bodies), directly causing events to happen > watching from afar, never appearing and then saying you planned it. And what constitutes "way too evil"? killing off your clan, wanting to gain control of a giant power, betraying everyone who ever knew you, stabbing that cute little girl who adored you? He's a villain, no such thing as "way too evil" especially for the likes of Madara.

And we get it, you're the sad little kid who sits in the corner laughing calling everyone gay for having more feelings than "I wantz to cut stuffz", I don't know if you're a closet gay or you are actually that immature, but still, the bleach version of your little stunt was so much funnier, and actually true.

Wow, Minato was epic at the last chapter! :D

So he can't read the future, but you sure can. The fact that he has all of the beasts minus 8 who has kisame with him, and 9 because he still has Sasuke, if nothing's really against your plans you don't really need to get phased.



It's in the elements so why not yin yang? and the only one capable of resurrecting is the one with the eyes of the dude who created ninjutsu, yerp. Minus Chiyo, who had the tech to put her life into Gaara, being a medical ninja of exceptional age, that's acceptable.



As opposed to the little orb that breaks the barrier between hollow and shini "oh it's not that, otherwise I wouldn't get a REAL powerup from it, actually, it warps reality, hur dur"



One big bs plot hole =/= psychological. "what the hell are you talking about?" = you make no sense  you silly little nut case.

Feinei said:


"In the whole naruto universe madara fits in perfectly as one of the most powerful shinoby,

Being one of the most powerful (even though its obvious that Masked Man is NOT Madara), does not justify his plans relying n coincidences or characters acting one way of another.



None of his powers contain abilities to foresee future, nor to reality-warp, thus half of his plans make no sense, thus hiw own characters make no sense.



For  a series that quite accuratelly depicts humanity, injuries and can be counted as logical paralel reflection of our own world, having a character pull out multiple xanathos gambits one right after the other does not fit.





Post-madara-introduction, it seems that the manga is wirtten entirelly around his actions - ie, Kishi first thinks up madara's plan and then makes everything happen to perfectly fulfil it. Storytelling requiring such a suspension of disbelief only proves that Naruto manga has been ging downhill and that Madara does NOT fit the narutoverse.





Feinei said:
he is one of the many special characters that exist in most manga that have exceptional abilities,

ut of thse all characters, only fur characters pulled out ANY sort of xanathos gambits:

Minato - his xanathos roulette with Naruto ,"technique" and etc, while clearly implausible, can be accounted for huge fan-following. Even if his xanathos rulette he pulled off is implausible inside the universe, Minato is still limited by logical fallacies, mistakes and character traits, unlike Madara.

Itachi - his xanathos roulette focused arund Sasuke, a person he knows most well. Most logically possible xanathos gambit, not to mention most grounded story and lore-wise.

Rikudou- Sennin-  Can easily be explained by his godlike status and possibly , an ability to see the future.

Madara - Logically implausible thirty xanathos pileups that back each other and require totally implausible coincidences and totally unexpected character actions. If one gambit fails, other is suddenly backed up by previously unmentioned plot element or character, doing something totally OOC.







Feinei said:


also the shinobi image is not a classic ninja (as ive seen some people say) because they were using inhuman abilities from the very beginning,

Part I shinobi could not fly. They were peak-humans with additional circular system that allowed them to perform wuxia-style movements, convert their own energy into basic elements and manipulate them and strengthen varius aspects of their body. it did not affect character themes(except for the rare cases fo bloodlines), nor had cartoony themes.



Part II shinobi chakra system no longer works as realistic circular system. It has been turned into "mystical" thing that allows reality-warping and is classified by black-and-white worldview, splitting people between Willoffire/Peace/GoodDestiny and Hatred/Pain/BadDestiny/Evil



Feinei said:


as to where Aizen in no way fits the bleach universe because he does not fit the image of a shinigami which he originally was supposed to be he is just some randomly overpowered character that had a good start but was then converted into an excuse for almost every plot hole and who has predicted everything that has happened from the very start beforehand. Obviously the image of a god who predicts everything that will happen and is stronger than anyone else does not fit nor hollow nor shinigami which were and are (supposed to be) the rules of the bleach universe"



Shinigami are supposed to be spirits, reality benders from the very begining. Even the lowest level shinigami is capable of things defying laws of physics and gravity.



Shinigami also are spirits. They are mostly formed and live through a force known as reiryoku, a mixture of will and supernatural spiritual pressure, more comparable to the spiral power of ttgl. The higher level of reiryoku is used to form a shinigami, the more destructive it is and the more it affects the surroundings, because EVERY being has a different levels of reiryoku, making reiryoku the foundation of matter in bleachverse.



Its also not connected to body capabilities and acts more like a supernatural energy, with no connection actual bodily functions. Shinigami prowess is classified by their mastery of shunpo, kido, hoho, swordsmanship and reiatsu.



Pre-hogyoku aizen was at peak of most of these abilities, thus even pre-hogyoku aizen should have been able to affect the laws of space and time around himself.





As you noted, Post-hogyoku aizen IS NOT a shinigami. He can't open senkai gates, his reiryoku is completely different from that of shinigami. He showcases hollow-like features, yet is not a hollow.





Shinigami and hollows are NOT the rules of bleachverse. They are the different archetypes of reiryoku. As are quincies, modsouls, pluses, humans, etc.





Just because Aizen does not belong to any known reiryoku signatures, it does not mean that he "broke the bleachverse laws", not to mention that his and ichigo's power type is yet to be explained.





For pre-planning. We still do not know how old aizen is and what is his background, nor what his bankai is. For a power of his style, Aizen for sure had many lackeys, as proven by the pendulum flashback. Having someone track ichigo and influence various events around him is not that farfetched, considering the nature and level of his powers(that still follow the pre-set ruleset) and unknown amount of his own lackeys "hypnotized-people". While certain things are too coincidental to be pre-planned, we still do nt know WHAT and how he preplanned, if he did anything at all, considering:

1) Aizen never explains his plans directly and most of explanations are twisted and changed in a way to psychologically hurt his enemies.

2) we still do not know his background. For all we know he could have been Isshin's(possibly younger) brother, considering  he, isshin and ichigo share the same sword theme.





As I said, Aizen as ridiculous as he is, fits the ruleset. The problem with him is that he was introduced way too fast. Now if we had mains climb a bit more in power levels, before Aizen is revealed, it would have worked way better. The powers he has and the abilities he has been given allow him to perfom things he did, without relying to coincidences way too much and even relying on coincidences is okay there.



For example lets take another comparison of mediums:

On one hand we have X/1999 - heavily destiny themed clampverse, thus coincidental character meetings, destined fights and etc work very well inside the universe.



Now let's take blame, which portrays an utterly nihilistic cyberpunk dystopia with nothing of "destiny sort" and add main character of x/1999 into it, alongside the destiny ruleset. Thats how Madara was added into Naruto.

ugly ass colored pages...

Fai said:
BakaKawaii said:


So what? He's not unrealistic godmode lulz and unlikable now?



Unlikeable ? Yes?

RealistiC? Inside Bleachverse Yes. Outside hell no. Realistic in any universe Nope because it is DENIED in any universe!!!



Fai said:
BakaKawaii said:


It did, but sadly all those villains died. But don't worry, they shall be back in zombie moooooode.



so madara can go just as planned.

Basically, your trying to twist the facts so you can transform Madara into Aizen.



Fai said:
BakaKawaii said:


rofl, "you lot" stating baseless truths", e.g. of a baseless truth "oh noes it's not bad cos it's difrunt stylez"

Yush yush, puppy.





Ye, stuff like

Personwithoutarguments said:


Bleach is one big plot hole



counts as un-argumented "fact" you lot spew at everyone.  Every sane person like me would be completely ok with that statement if it ended with "Because" and a huge irrefutable argument followed.



As of now, you just like certain other people in these threads are just spitting acid at people with whose opinions you disagree.



However yes this is MAL, so its not surprising that people like that feel safe there and feel bad whenever someone disagrees with them and backs up that different opinion with actual arguments.



Oh and that last sentence? you might want to rework your manners. That sounds way too much like flamebaiting and a troll like you should know better than to openly show off their anger and shaking hands~ Let us all be in awe of the presence of the Only Sane Man and take example of his Perfection. For his opinions are better than everyone else.

BakaKawaii said:
Fai said:


You know, when I think about it, Tobi-personalityMadara would have worked as WAY BETTER villain than this.



The current Madara is way too stale, way too perfect and WAY TOO EVIL, to be a realistic villain. He's like goldenage incarnation of Dr.Doom from fantastic four or Dr.Evil from austin powers.







As for hug ending~~~





Read this from up to down, Thats the last chapter of naruto:



http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/6554/73687255.jpg

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/9646/99696197.jpg

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/6567/64563318.jpg

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/7996/58833671.jpg

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/5461/87960827.jpg

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/2482/74547131.jpg

That was just lame. Once again with tunnel vision you always forget Aizen Sosuke THE GUY WHO FUCKING ADMITTED THAT HE PLANNED EVERYTHING.

Aizen is so stale no matter how or who defeat him it will the same effect whether it's by Yuzu coming out of nowhere with a GT, Ichigo with the final GT, Michiro (the girl Tatsuki carrying) defeats him or something else.