Bleach Chapter 619 Discussion
- Thread starter PocketCat2
- Start date
- #20
The_Bif said:
Trollzen said:
Why do people think that Ywach has said the same thing as Aizen? Aizen said that he planned everything that happened to Ichigo. What Ywach was saying is that everything Ichigo did was to his benefit. (In this case the result being Ichigo end up killing the Soul king) But if you don't really care about the Manga it is easy to think they said the same thing.
But it will be interesting, if Ichigo's and Ywach's will is connected then Ywach should be able to control him in some ways. But Ichigo is not just a quincy so he shouldn't be able to control him, but then why mention it?
I'm not sure where you read the chapter, but you missed some pretty vital bits of their conversation. The first page of it basically says what you are saying...
Bach: Do you follow?
Bach: That is because... There is no need to even think about it.
Bach: Your will everything, it is connected to my will.
Ichigo: What do you mean...
Bach: What I'm saying... Is that you have been fighting all this time for me.
Bach: When you awakened as a Shinigami your fight was with yourself, battling to
increase your own power...
Bach: Icreasing your own power so that you could defeat Aizen Sousuke.
Bach: And then... You once again reclaimed... the power to defeat Aizen Sousuke,
which you had lost... By cutting down the Spirit King before my eyes!
Then it is interrupted by Yoruichi...
Yoruichi: It's a trick, Ichigo! Don't let him confuse you!
Bach: And which part of what I said is a trick?!
Bach: Without even having to think about it... I can still see, clear as day,
the image of you dancing for me as I pulled the strings... No matter what you
may think, everything you have done... Was with my consent ...All of it...
Bach: It is all because you and I, Ichigo... We have the same blood flowing
through our veins!
This part is Bach telling Ichigo that he's been controlling him the entire time, that everything has been because he allowed it, because he wanted it, that everything Ichigo has been doing was his will. This is exactly what Aizen told Ichigo during their battle, Aizen said it in a much more sophisticated way with cultured arrogance but it's the same thing, regardless.
What is the difference between saying "I planned everything that has happened to you" and "I have been pulling your strings the entire time"? Nothing other than the words used to form the sentence.
Ywach means quincy power Ichigo (old man) come from Ywach
what is problem if he said the same words, that's mean his planned everything not the liar Aizen
When did Aizen lie? You call him a liar, but when and where did Aizen lie? When he said that he'd controlled and pulled all of the strings in Ichigo's life? Sorry, but he actually has proven that he manipulated Ichigo's life since birth and one could argue that Ichigo was born because of Aizen's manipulation in the first place. Aizen hollowfied a quincy as part of his experiments, but I doubt it was just coincidence that Urahara and Isshin just happen to be around for it. Aizen knows that Urahara is the only man who is smarter than him, so he would have known that Urahara would intervene in some way. He also would have known that a Captain just happened to be in the area when it happened, and used that opportunity to see how a Captain would fare against his hollowfication experiment. Once he had all of that information, it would be simple to predict what would happen and he'd only have to wait for the "perfect specimen" to be born. Then just as Ichigo's powers were started to mature he arranged for Rukia to be sent to the real world and for Grand Fisher to stumble upon Ichigo's trail. Then he arranged for the Gillian to attack at just the right time in Ichigo's development, for Renji and Byakuya to appear at just the time when Ichigo needed that next step in his development. Everything was planned and arranged by Aizen.
The inner manifestation of Ichigo's quincy powers, the "old man" Zangetsu tried to keep Ichigo from becoming a Shinigami. He held back Ichigo's powers until he realized he could not stop Ichigo, and then gave him only enough power to do what needed to be done. This all by the "old man"'s own admission. If Ichigo is connected to Bach's will, and Bach has been "allowing" everything that's heppened then he's failed miserably at being as smart as he thinks he is and shown just how arrogant he really is.
Bach admitting that he controlled Ichigo's will, that he "allowed" everything to happen, is like admitting that he knew from the start that he had no chance in hell and is admitting it now so he has a good excuse when he loses later.
My problem is with the very fact that Kubo decided to make Bach an Aizen wannabe in the first place, Bach could have been a great villain on his own without having to copy the previous villain. Where's the diversity?
- #23
And boy, Yuha Bach's plan was contrived.
Also, loved how Yoruichi explained her attack(I guess damn Oshou could give them a hint that if you do that with Yuha then it is game over) and got her ass kicked but when she asked Yuha Bach about his attack and he didn't answer.
- #24
JUHABACH said:
The_Bif said:
Trollzen said:
Why do people think that Ywach has said the same thing as Aizen? Aizen said that he planned everything that happened to Ichigo. What Ywach was saying is that everything Ichigo did was to his benefit. (In this case the result being Ichigo end up killing the Soul king) But if you don't really care about the Manga it is easy to think they said the same thing.
But it will be interesting, if Ichigo's and Ywach's will is connected then Ywach should be able to control him in some ways. But Ichigo is not just a quincy so he shouldn't be able to control him, but then why mention it?
I'm not sure where you read the chapter, but you missed some pretty vital bits of their conversation. The first page of it basically says what you are saying...
Bach: Do you follow?
Bach: That is because... There is no need to even think about it.
Bach: Your will everything, it is connected to my will.
Ichigo: What do you mean...
Bach: What I'm saying... Is that you have been fighting all this time for me.
Bach: When you awakened as a Shinigami your fight was with yourself, battling to
increase your own power...
Bach: Icreasing your own power so that you could defeat Aizen Sousuke.
Bach: And then... You once again reclaimed... the power to defeat Aizen Sousuke,
which you had lost... By cutting down the Spirit King before my eyes!
Then it is interrupted by Yoruichi...
Yoruichi: It's a trick, Ichigo! Don't let him confuse you!
Bach: And which part of what I said is a trick?!
Bach: Without even having to think about it... I can still see, clear as day,
the image of you dancing for me as I pulled the strings... No matter what you
may think, everything you have done... Was with my consent ...All of it...
Bach: It is all because you and I, Ichigo... We have the same blood flowing
through our veins!
This part is Bach telling Ichigo that he's been controlling him the entire time, that everything has been because he allowed it, because he wanted it, that everything Ichigo has been doing was his will. This is exactly what Aizen told Ichigo during their battle, Aizen said it in a much more sophisticated way with cultured arrogance but it's the same thing, regardless.
What is the difference between saying "I planned everything that has happened to you" and "I have been pulling your strings the entire time"? Nothing other than the words used to form the sentence.
Ywach means quincy power Ichigo (old man) come from Ywach
what is problem if he said the same words, that's mean his planned everything not the liar Aizen
When did Aizen lie? You call him a liar, but when and where did Aizen lie? When he said that he'd controlled and pulled all of the strings in Ichigo's life? Sorry, but he actually has proven that he manipulated Ichigo's life since birth and one could argue that Ichigo was born because of Aizen's manipulation in the first place. Aizen hollowfied a quincy as part of his experiments, but I doubt it was just coincidence that Urahara and Isshin just happen to be around for it. Aizen knows that Urahara is the only man who is smarter than him, so he would have known that Urahara would intervene in some way. He also would have known that a Captain just happened to be in the area when it happened, and used that opportunity to see how a Captain would fare against his hollowfication experiment. Once he had all of that information, it would be simple to predict what would happen and he'd only have to wait for the "perfect specimen" to be born. Then just as Ichigo's powers were started to mature he arranged for Rukia to be sent to the real world and for Grand Fisher to stumble upon Ichigo's trail. Then he arranged for the Gillian to attack at just the right time in Ichigo's development, for Renji and Byakuya to appear at just the time when Ichigo needed that next step in his development. Everything was planned and arranged by Aizen.
The inner manifestation of Ichigo's quincy powers, the "old man" Zangetsu tried to keep Ichigo from becoming a Shinigami. He held back Ichigo's powers until he realized he could not stop Ichigo, and then gave him only enough power to do what needed to be done. This all by the "old man"'s own admission. If Ichigo is connected to Bach's will, and Bach has been "allowing" everything that's heppened then he's failed miserably at being as smart as he thinks he is and shown just how arrogant he really is.
Bach admitting that he controlled Ichigo's will, that he "allowed" everything to happen, is like admitting that he knew from the start that he had no chance in hell and is admitting it now so he has a good excuse when he loses later.
My problem is with the very fact that Kubo decided to make Bach an Aizen wannabe in the first place, Bach could have been a great villain on his own without having to copy the previous villain. Where's the diversity?
OK
what about this
ichii_1 said:
Lol Yhwach never said he planned anything XD
It was all predetermined by destiny/fate.
Lol people can't even read these days.
[/quote]
- #25
[spoiler] The_Bif said:
JUHABACH said:
The_Bif said:
JUHABACH said:
The_Bif said:
Trollzen said:
Why do people think that Ywach has said the same thing as Aizen? Aizen said that he planned everything that happened to Ichigo. What Ywach was saying is that everything Ichigo did was to his benefit. (In this case the result being Ichigo end up killing the Soul king) But if you don't really care about the Manga it is easy to think they said the same thing.
But it will be interesting, if Ichigo's and Ywach's will is connected then Ywach should be able to control him in some ways. But Ichigo is not just a quincy so he shouldn't be able to control him, but then why mention it?
I'm not sure where you read the chapter, but you missed some pretty vital bits of their conversation. The first page of it basically says what you are saying...
Bach: Do you follow?
Bach: That is because... There is no need to even think about it.
Bach: Your will everything, it is connected to my will.
Ichigo: What do you mean...
Bach: What I'm saying... Is that you have been fighting all this time for me.
Bach: When you awakened as a Shinigami your fight was with yourself, battling to
increase your own power...
Bach: Icreasing your own power so that you could defeat Aizen Sousuke.
Bach: And then... You once again reclaimed... the power to defeat Aizen Sousuke,
which you had lost... By cutting down the Spirit King before my eyes!
Then it is interrupted by Yoruichi...
Yoruichi: It's a trick, Ichigo! Don't let him confuse you!
Bach: And which part of what I said is a trick?!
Bach: Without even having to think about it... I can still see, clear as day,
the image of you dancing for me as I pulled the strings... No matter what you
may think, everything you have done... Was with my consent ...All of it...
Bach: It is all because you and I, Ichigo... We have the same blood flowing
through our veins!
This part is Bach telling Ichigo that he's been controlling him the entire time, that everything has been because he allowed it, because he wanted it, that everything Ichigo has been doing was his will. This is exactly what Aizen told Ichigo during their battle, Aizen said it in a much more sophisticated way with cultured arrogance but it's the same thing, regardless.
What is the difference between saying "I planned everything that has happened to you" and "I have been pulling your strings the entire time"? Nothing other than the words used to form the sentence.
Ywach means quincy power Ichigo (old man) come from Ywach
what is problem if he said the same words, that's mean his planned everything not the liar Aizen
When did Aizen lie? You call him a liar, but when and where did Aizen lie? When he said that he'd controlled and pulled all of the strings in Ichigo's life? Sorry, but he actually has proven that he manipulated Ichigo's life since birth and one could argue that Ichigo was born because of Aizen's manipulation in the first place. Aizen hollowfied a quincy as part of his experiments, but I doubt it was just coincidence that Urahara and Isshin just happen to be around for it. Aizen knows that Urahara is the only man who is smarter than him, so he would have known that Urahara would intervene in some way. He also would have known that a Captain just happened to be in the area when it happened, and used that opportunity to see how a Captain would fare against his hollowfication experiment. Once he had all of that information, it would be simple to predict what would happen and he'd only have to wait for the "perfect specimen" to be born. Then just as Ichigo's powers were started to mature he arranged for Rukia to be sent to the real world and for Grand Fisher to stumble upon Ichigo's trail. Then he arranged for the Gillian to attack at just the right time in Ichigo's development, for Renji and Byakuya to appear at just the time when Ichigo needed that next step in his development. Everything was planned and arranged by Aizen.
The inner manifestation of Ichigo's quincy powers, the "old man" Zangetsu tried to keep Ichigo from becoming a Shinigami. He held back Ichigo's powers until he realized he could not stop Ichigo, and then gave him only enough power to do what needed to be done. This all by the "old man"'s own admission. If Ichigo is connected to Bach's will, and Bach has been "allowing" everything that's heppened then he's failed miserably at being as smart as he thinks he is and shown just how arrogant he really is.
Bach admitting that he controlled Ichigo's will, that he "allowed" everything to happen, is like admitting that he knew from the start that he had no chance in hell and is admitting it now so he has a good excuse when he loses later.
My problem is with the very fact that Kubo decided to make Bach an Aizen wannabe in the first place, Bach could have been a great villain on his own without having to copy the previous villain. Where's the diversity?
OK
what about this
ichii_1 said:
Lol Yhwach never said he planned anything XD
It was all predetermined by destiny/fate.
Lol people can't even read these days.
So, that one page from a previous chapter is supposed to dismiss what he just said in this chapter? Bach literally just said in this chapter:
Bach: Without even having to think about it... I can still see, clear as day,
the image of you dancing for me as I pulled the strings...
"you dancing for me as I pulled the strings" If he's pulling the strings then it's not "fate" or "destiny", it's manipulation/control. It's literally the same meaning as what Aizen said, only with different words.
"Pull The Strings"- also pull somebody's strings
to control the actions of a person or group, often secretly.
That is the definition of the idiom Bach used. Now here is "fate":
Fate: the development of events beyond a person's control, regarded as determined by a supernatural power.
or as a verb: be destined to happen, turn out, or act in a particular way.
Destined: (of a person's future) developing as though according to a plan.
In this case the plan belongs to Bach, and he was pulling the strings by his own admission. Therefore, as I stated above it is literally the same exact meaning as what Aizen told Ichigo in their battle. He just used different words because he's arrogant and believes himself to be some kind of god-like being.
OK
what about this
Official translation
Viz
[/quote][/spoiler]
I placed the thread within spoiler tags to save space and people's eyes.
Viz is the "official translation", but it's companies like Viz that are the reason I stay away from manga or anime that has been "officially" translated into English. I won't watch English dubbed anime, and I don't read the "official" releases of manga by Viz. When you dumb it down, make it so completely unoffensive and non-controversial to virtually every possible type of person that could read it, it takes away the power and meaning of the words. There is an art to translating Japanese into English without mucking it up, if you take too many liberties as Viz does you lose power and meaning but if you are too literal it does not read right. It is all about finding that balance, the ability to literally translate it AND make it read right for the English language. I've compared a number of sources, this translation and the the translation I gave in my earlier comments are the only two going around with the translation I gave being the most prevalent and accepted of the two in discussion forums. I'm not giving out the source of my translation because I assume the rules for the manga threads are the same as with anime, no unofficial sub groups or translations are allowed to be listed here.
However, that is more an argument of preference than anything. Viz has the label "official" so I guess that makes them "right". So, let's look at it this way...
In the way it is presented here, it was all done for Bach's gain the conversation comes off more as a joke than anything. It makes Bach sound like he's run out of things to say and is just trying to throw Ichigo off, which is a theory that others have presented as well. It could also be taken as you said earlier, that he's talking about "fate". If that is the case, we just go back to the definition of "fate" that I copied earlier:
Fate: the development of events beyond a person's control, regarded as determined by a supernatural power.
or as a verb: be destined to happen, turn out, or act in a particular way.
I would assume that, going by the way Bach was speaking to Ichigo in this translation, that it would be "fate" as a verb- destined to happen. In which case we'll go back to my definition of "destined" from earlier as well...
Destined: (of a person's future) developing as though according to a plan.
So, if it's developing as though according to a plan it would mean that Bach would be the great or supernatural power behind the plan. In this case, if Bach was indeed the power behind the plan that was Ichigo's "fate", then telling this to Ichigo, whether you say it as he did in the Viz translation or in the translation I gave, it means the same thing. Bach has been "guiding" Ichigo's life from the start, a safe assumption considering he says they are of the same blood and the inner manifestation of Ichigo's Quincy power is the Bach from 1000 years ago.
Now we go back and take a look at Aizen's speech during the battle with Ichigo... Aizen tells Ichigo that everything he's done has played right into his hand, and explains that he was the one who set all of the events into motion that led him to that very moment.
So, everything Ichigo did played into Aizen's hand and was done for Bach's gain, because Aizen set all of the events into motion yet he was fighting for Bach the entire time. No matter how you spin it, they're both telling him the same shit.
On a side note, I wonder if Bach acting like Aizen could have something to do with how Aizen screwed with his "time" when he went down to talk to him?