Bleach Chapter 469 Discussion
- Thread starter SynOcean
- Start date
- #85
Except that not. Shounen series are all about heavy handed morality and the ideals. You have shounen protagonist, you have fallen hero antagonist, you have final villain, you have the core sidekick cast and you have villain groups. ITs always the same.
It's the execution of the character development and how the story is told, that's the difference between a good and a bad series.
Fai said:
And yes, Ichigo and Aizen's similarities are kind of the point. They have been there for a long time(best example would be the usage of sun-cross in the symbolics of both people in various ways). Aizen, to go by shounen standards is "ichigo who lost his way". Which is exactly why Aizen's final fate might be a heroic sacrifice helping Ichigo against soul king.
Except Ichigo is much more pathetic over losing than Aizen was when he was sealed. Ichigo has already lost his way in terms of protecting his own family and friends, when he ran away and whined about it.
Fai said:
They would have done that if Ichigo went on and told them what is happening.
That's why Ichigo's an idiot, too bad he never learns from his mistakes.
Fai said:
If you did not notice this whole arc also had that theme:
People keeping Ichigo out of the loop to protect him and how that backfires.
Ichigo not trusting others and letting doubts eat away at him while he trusts strangers for promise of power and how it backfires on him.
Actually I did, which is why I mentioned it in the 1st place. My problem is that Ichigo doesn't learn from his mistakes, he doesn't face any real consequences.
Fai said:
No. IT was not about him regaining his powers back. read above.
What I meant was that the most of the arc was spent on Ichigo trying to regain his powers back. The problem with this arc's theme is that Ichigo doesn't learn, he will still value power over his family and friends.
Fai said:
Exacta. Ichigo is fallible normal human. His straight-headed attitude is NOT healthy. Its something he put on since his mother died(ala the day when he stopped smiling according to Tatsuki).
The problem is that Ichigo hasn't moved forward at all, he hasn't changed. What would be normal is for Ichigo to grow up and move on with his life and actually appreciate the family and friends that he has.
Fai said:
AT least one manga in holy shounen trio acknowledges that the protagonist's messianic obsession is nothing natural, unhealthy and driven by his purely personal reasons.
That's similar to Ichigo's obsession to power, which is unhealthy and unnatural. Naruto needs to get over Sasuke asap, all he's done is hurt Naruto and his friends and stomping all over their supposed 'friendship'.
Fai said:
It makes Ichigo more real and more likeable, unlike Naruto being Jesus incarnation of peace and happiness.
I agree about Naruto, but Ichigo isn't really any better. He's selfish and doesn't learn from his mistakes. Ichigo's friends and family are constantly screwed over to glorify Ichigo. Whenever Ichigo struggles, he doesn't really overcome it on his own. he either relies on his hollow or for someone to stab him to power him up to get himself out of a situation.
Fai said:
Build up.
Speculations like that are called foreshadowing. Ishida is talking to the audience, the readers, foreshadowing the ominous theme behind it all. Very common in any sort of literary genre.
Except Uryu doesn't know about it, he's just reiterating what audience is thinking about without giving us any new important information. We have to wait until 1 of the Shinigamis, Fullbringer, or Ginjou himself to tell us everything.
Fai said:
Build up.
I prefer it this way when we slowly ease into it all with actual story reasons instead of him just dropping it all upon us.
Also the very fact that Isshin never told his backstory is crucial point on why this happens, adding even more realism to the story and allowing for slower and better paced "past catching up to him" story.
Except there's no real connection being established, Isshin is just being thrown aside with little to no purpose at all in this arc.
Fai said:
Both. I thought it could not be clearer.
Hogyoku does NOT create and fulfil shit out of nowhere. For him to bring out the powers in people the power potential should have been in there for the first place
Ichigo's reiatsu "activated" hogyoku, hogyoku fulfiled wishes of those around him, granting Orihime and Chad the access to their latent powers. We still don't know what Orihime is, but this confirms that Chad's power is FB nature - also it adds a new possible powerup for chad - expecting that alongside armor he will fb grandpa's medalion into some sort of weapon or stuff along the way.
Again, these people aren't very trustworthy, they could be making things up for all we know. Poor Chad and Orihime, if only they weren't constantly screwed over.
Fai said:
Yes. It was lie. Hence it was not the point. Kubo never treated FB trainign nor FB form as shounen powerup. read above.
Except, Ichigo learned nothing of importance from his training. The 1st thing he did when he saw Tsukishima again was spazz out and run away several time after ditching his sisters and friends behind, for all Ichigo knew, they could have been in danger.
Fai said:
And that has nothing to do with the weakness described.
What you are saying is that Ichigo overpowered Byakuya in exact same way Tsuki suggests one should fight byakuya.
Why wasn't this brought up during any of his previous fights, that could have set up some nice foreshadowing?
Machuran said:
You have no reason to assume that.
Thats like assuming Orihime does not have any other new techniques or that Chad did not advance his power further.
That's because Ichigo is still using Getsuga Tenshou, now he's back to where he's started with his Shinigami powers.
Fai said:
Except its not. The sword changed multiple times. We are not even sure its real Zangetsu and not just another -getsu. Nor we are sure of him NOT having any other techniques. Hell, we were not sure of that after dangai training, and this whole sword design change also adds to that. Stop assuming things when there's plenty of facts to go against you.
The sword right now is the same design as his big sword when the series 1st started, I'm not assuming anything. Zangetsu looked different because Ichigo was in his bankai form.
Fai said:
You are yet again stating your opinions as facts without arguments.
This was not about Ichigo getting his powers back. This was about HOW he was having lost his powers and how easily that weakness can be exploited. FB was never portrayed as shonen power up.
Actually it's about how Ichigo didn't at all whatsoever, he's doesn't learn from his mistakes, and he never faces the consequences for his mistakes. Fullbring was just an excuse for Kubo to dump pointless characters on us and drag out this pointless arc until he figures out what to do next.
Fai said:
As for second part? well, tahts what story exposition will be for. OR do you expect to know everything about what is happening before it all even starts?
We know there's more to this whole story of FBs and we will get to it.
We're at the climax, exposition should have been established early on in this arc like their whole motivations. Instead, I fear that some half-assed exposition and poorly developed backstory is going to be dumped on us at the end of the arc if things are explained.
Fai said:
Ichigo moped around not moving forward. He finally got free of his power and felt disilusioned with the normalcy he has been thrown into.
EVERY other character has been shown to be moving on forward with their lives in natural sense of scale - For everyone it was just another year. For Ichigo it was a personal tragedy.
This arc told readers more about Ichigo than entire manga since Mother flashback did.
If you compare this to the start of the series for Ichigo, Ichigo is pretty much the same. All we did was go in a circle and now we're pretty much back to where we started.
kimchuy said:
Well, at the end of the day, what's best for all of us Bleach readers (especially the haters) is to be patient and let Kubo finish this arc. All of the inconsistencies and mysteries this manga had will hopefully be answered. And then after that, all of you can judge if all of it are pointless or necessary; these fights, trainings or bullshits.
Many fans have been very patient for over 10 years now.
kimchuy said:
Then, if you prove that the whole "Fullbring" arc is pointless, stop reading Bleach! Don't waste all of your time spewing your hate. Actually, all of your "cries" will not reach Kubo though, and even if it will, there's no guarantee that he can understand what all of you are writing here (Well, given that all of Bleach's chapter titles are semantically incoherent.)
Except there are many people who want to see how it ends, anyone can dislike a chapter, an arc, or the direction that the series is going in.
kimchuy said:
Let's not be to impulsive and brash, right?. All of you haters reminded me of Ichigo. What an irony!
You could say the same about the defenders who are constantly making excuses. Hopefully none of us in real life would make the same dumb mistakes as Ichigo.
- #86
Except other Shonen series have better execution so it doesn't come off as lazy and half-assed. With Ichigo, his selfish desire for power only makes him a worse character than he already is, he's becoming more and more like Aizen, especially in terms of ridiculous transformations like his stupid looking Fullbring suit.
Except that not. Shounen series are all about heavy handed morality and the ideals. You have shounen protagonist, you have fallen hero antagonist, you have final villain, you have the core sidekick cast and you have villain groups. ITs always the same.
And yes, Ichigo and Aizen's similarities are kind of the point. They have been there for a long time(best example would be the usage of sun-cross in the symbolics of both people in various ways). Aizen, to go by shounen standards is "ichigo who lost his way". Which is exactly why Aizen's final fate might be a heroic sacrifice helping Ichigo against soul king.
Machuran said:
They could have avoided this situation by informing Ichigo about getting his powers back, 17 months is plenty of time, especially given Urahara's intellect.
They would have done that if Ichigo went on and told them what is happening.
If you did not notice this whole arc also had that theme:
People keeping Ichigo out of the loop to protect him and how that backfires.
Ichigo not trusting others and letting doubts eat away at him while he trusts strangers for promise of power and how it backfires on him.
Yes, the majority of this arc focused on Ichigo's powers back and fullbring had nothing to do with it. Any other sub plot was shoved aside in favor of these poorly handled fights.
No. IT was not about him regaining his powers back. read above.
What we learned is that Ichigo is a selfish, power-hungry moron. He trusted Ginjou over his own dad, he ditched his 2 sisters at home during his encounter with Tsukishima and ran away which betrays his whole 'protecting' mantra since he has no real goals, and he begged for his powers, not his friends or family.
Exacta. Ichigo is fallible normal human. His straight-headed attitude is NOT healthy. Its something he put on since his mother died(ala the day when he stopped smiling according to Tatsuki).
AT least one manga in holy shounen trio acknowledges that the protagonist's messianic obsession is nothing natural, unhealthy and driven by his purely personal reasons.
It makes Ichigo more real and more likeable, unlike Naruto being Jesus incarnation of peace and happiness.
All Uryu did was speculate, which was pointless because we still don't know Ginjou's motivations.
Build up.
Speculations like that are called foreshadowing. Ishida is talking to the audience, the readers, foreshadowing the ominous theme behind it all. Very common in any sort of literary genre.
Isshin's backstory is what this arc should have been, instead he's stuck dealing with Chad/Orihime with Urahara.
Build up.
I prefer it this way when we slowly ease into it all with actual story reasons instead of him just dropping it all upon us.
\\Also the very fact that Isshin never told his backstory is crucial point on why this happens, adding even more realism to the story and allowing for slower and better paced "past catching up to him" story.
Chad's power has had yet another explanation, so which is it? The Hogyoku or Fullbring? Aizen and the Fullbringers aren't exactly trustworthy.
Both. I thought it could not be clearer.
Hogyoku does NOT create and fulfil shit out of nowhere. For him to bring out the powers in people the power potential should have been in there for the first place
Ichigo's reiatsu "activated" hogyoku, hogyoku fulfiled wishes of those around him, granting Orihime and Chad the access to their latent powers. We still don't know what Orihime is, but this confirms that Chad's power is FB nature - also it adds a new possible powerup for chad - expecting that alongside armor he will fb grandpa's medalion into some sort of weapon or stuff along the way.
Except that's what Ginjou said, he said that's their whole purpose and that turned out to be a lie. If you paid attention, Ginjou said that right when Ichigo foolishly went into their hideout.
Yes. It was lie. Hence it was not the point. Kubo never treated FB trainign nor FB form as shounen powerup. read above.
Except Ichigo defeated Byakuya using his bankai speed to counter Byakuya's petals and had some help from his hollow
And that has nothing to do with the weakness described.
What you are saying is that Ichigo overpowered Byakuya in exact same way Tsuki suggests one should fight byakuya.
Machuran said:
Congrats on taking my words out of context, what I meant was Ichigo hasn't learned anything new, trademark or not, his objective for the Fullbring training was to get his Shinigami powers back, but fullbring had nothing to do with it.
You have no reason to assume that.
Thats like assuming Orihime does not have any other new techniques or that Chad did not advance his power further.
Machuran said:
Obviously I'm not talking about his zanpakto, as I've already mentioned, his sword is still the same as when the series started, you know the big one when he was fighting hollows.
Except its not. The sword changed multiple times. We are not even sure its real Zangetsu and not just another -getsu. Nor we are sure of him NOT having any other techniques. Hell, we were not sure of that after dangai training, and this whole sword design change also adds to that. Stop assuming things when there's plenty of facts to go against you.
Machuran said:
There's not much of a story, especially not in this arc. This 1st half dealt with Ichigo trying to get his Shinigami powers back, which was pointless. The 2nd half dealt with Shinigamis fighting Fullbringers without giving us any concrete reason or motivations as to why they're fighting.
You are yet again stating your opinions as facts without arguments.
This was not about Ichigo getting his powers back. This was about HOW he was having lost his powers and how easily that weakness can be exploited. FB was never portrayed as shonen power up.
As for second part? well, tahts what story exposition will be for. OR do you expect to know everything about what is happening before it all even starts?
We know there's more to this whole story of FBs and we will get to it.
Machuran said:
Except in Bleach it's still pointless, it's worse since it wasted almost a year on this pointless fullbring nonsense.. Ichigo did nothing but mope around about his power loss, nothing really changed, he didn't develop at all, he didn't mature, he didn't grow from his experiences. His power loss was also pointless as it taught him nothing and served no purpose other than wasting time.
Ichigo moped around not moving forward. He finally got free of his power and felt disilusioned with the normalcy he has been thrown into.
EVERY other character has been shown to be moving on forward with their lives in natural sense of scale - For everyone it was just another year. For Ichigo it was a personal tragedy.
This arc told readers more about Ichigo than entire manga since Mother flashback did.
- #88
2. Kubo still owes us the explanation of this 17 months. Why did Ginjo wait until now? What was Urahara doing in this period of time? What about the shinigamis? Again, insufficient info that is yet to be revealed by Kubo so lets all not jump into conclusions.
Add that to the pile of unanswered questions from the previous arcs.
icegenie said:
3. If this whole Fullbring arc is all about training in your view, then you will never see the point of our argument.
Of course it's training, what did you think Ichigo was doing? You're right, the Fullbring arc wasn't about training, it was about wasting time by dragging out pointless ridiculous scenes of underdeveloped characters with poorly defined motives.
icegenie said:
4. Why even bring up the point that Ichigo is weak mentally therefore he sucks and so Bleach sucks? Ichigo is not the almighty hero that saves the day. I think this fullbring arc clearly illustrates this point, esp in the beginning where Ichigo felt absolutely powerless. The thing that he needs to learn is to trust his friends and for his friends to trust in him, something that they (Ichigo, Inoue and Ishida) failed to do so in the beginning of the arc. Ichigo alone cannot save the day. He needs the support of people around him - clearly shown in the Aizen arc.
If anything, this arc showed how pathetic Ichigo really is. He's a selfish, stupid, power-hungry moron who might distrust his friends even more after the way Kubo poorly treated them, he allowed himself to be manipulated by an obviously untrustworthy stranger over his own dad. This contradicts Ichigo from the end of the last arc when he didn't want to hide things from his friends anymore, but that's exactly what he tried to do with the whole Fullbring business. Ichigo isn't an almighty hero nor is he a good developed protagonist, he relies on power ups (either from being stabbed, using his hollow, etc.).
icegenie said:
Well, I dont see how the "defenders" are "constantly making excuses" when it is a fact that there is insufficient evidence to discuss whether or not this entire arc is "pointless" or not, let alone us being "impulsive and brash".
That's an opinionated topic, the defends are presenting their opinions as facts and evidence. Insufficient? We're at the climax of this arc, there' plenty of source material to discuss.
icegenie said:
I believe Kubo tried to make Ichigo as real as possible. There are times when no words is good enough to express our thoughts to another person. Or when uneasiness takes over rationality. Ichigo is someone who is kind and always eager to help others, but these kind of people are the ones who would not want to trouble others with their problems. Something that some people see as "weak" and "dumb"
Yeah, Ichigo was so kind when he ditched his sisters and friends at home when he found Tsukishima at his home and ran away. Most 'real' people don't trust complete strangers over their own family members. It's unrealistic that Ichigo doesn't learn from his mistakes like a 'real' person would, he's constantly making irrational choices but never learns from them because he never faces any consequences like a real person would.
