bang-bang said:
x-metanoia said:
I've seen that theory since before Shogun arc and was actually on board with former Naraku Shoyo as well but...that's in a whole different ballpark that whatever Usturo is.
Uhmmm... This theory existed AFTER the shogun arc. See the screenshots.
And there's no utsuro before the shogun arc. What are you talking about?
And if you accepted the theory that Shouyou was actually a part of Naraku, how that Shouyou being the LEADER of Naraku that far fetched?
Seriously, dude
Sorry, I guess I was too brief and some things weren't clear.
I meant to say I've seen people theorize that Shoyo might be former Naraku before Shogun arc started; less people probably and the theory had a lot less evidence going for it so it had less traction. But after the Courtesan arc I've seen people speculate about why Shoyo got captured by Naraku in the first place and how Oboro might have been personally acquainted with him before that etc, and one of the ideas floating around was that he used to be one of them.
So after Shogun arc where it was clearly hinted that Shoyo lived a less than upstanding life and had a lot to feel repentant about, the fact that he used to be an assassin for Naraku sounded plausible and interesting to me.
Why am I not into Utsuro if Shoyo being Naraku was interesting to me? Well. As I see it there's a lot of differences between the two scenarios. In the letter situation Shoyo would be just a human with an unfortunate life who decided one day to walk away from it all and he took some troubled kids under his wing and he learned something from them and they learned something from him; he met an early demise but despite everything he died satisfied with his life and with trust in the people he left behind. Nice poignant human drama imo. In the former, he's just a temporary alternate personality of fantastical immortal monster ("Your master Yoshida Shoyo was just a momentary smile made by Utsuro in his 500 years of bloodstained history"). The significance of those few years changes. There's a big difference and it completely changes the character and context surrounding him (i.e. all his relationships with other characters etc). Shoyo as a character becomes just a puzzle piece in another character's long life and considering his importance to the central plot and themes of Gintama so far pulling a thing like this right now feels off to me. It reminds me of all the times an "everything you love was a lie" twist like this was done in other Jump manga and it never ended well. So yeah, it's not really that impossible to like one option and dislike the other.
Anyway I'm waiting for this week's chapter to see if my feelings change or not. I still love Gintama, so I'm not gonna be flippant about it and just say it's "ruined forever!!" and dump it.
You're saying truths, bro. But, really, we have so little material to judge anything right now. I'll be sitting still until everything's unfolded.
I've also theorized Shouyou being part of the Naraku way before I've heard of Utsuro. i mean, what crime did he possibly committed to meet such gruesome fate? Surely, not just because he is this kindhearted teacher who picked up kids and teach them the way of the sword?
There's something mysterious... something sinister looming over his personality since the beginning. here are some of his words:
"these hands who only knew how to take away wants to give something back."
"I picked him up or *he picked me up*. i don't know anymore."
and do not forget the "say hello to sensei for me in hell"
the disciples of Yoshida Shouyou always assumed that he is in hell.
..
.
I get what you mean about Shouyou/Utsuro. I loved Shouyou so much before. Everything Gintoki is right now is because of him. I love gintoki and Shouyou's relationship more than anything I've ever seen in any anime in the history of forever. It's beautiful. A teacher picking up a stray in the middle of the graveyard. Teaching him. Feeding him. Making him feel loved. Giving him home.
but ask yourself this: now that utsuro came into play, is Shouyou just a lie?
If Gintoki's whole life was from a lie, is everything about him a lie?
Now we get the story in 3 perspectives:
From Takasugi's standpoint, it is a revenge story
From Gintoki, it is a story of perseverance, sacrifice and love
From Shouyou/utsuro, a story of distraught or... a story or redemption?
again, "These hands who only knew how to take away wants to give something back"
but yeah, I'm excited to see where this is going. I mean, come on, this is Gintama. Epicness runs deep on Sorachi's veins. :DD
