Bleach Chapter 460 Discussion

Han-yuu said:


What i said in previous chapter. Kubo better start explaining or this whole arc was useless to give ichigo his powers with new random characters nothing more unless proven from chapters and not speculation, i have Reading/Watching comprehension.

1. We know Ginjou has an extensive information about Isshin and seems to know him.

2. We know Tsukishima is intensely hiding from someone not wanting to appear in camera or recordings.

3. We know xcution/fullbringers need Ichigo's fb for some reason, most likely connected to  him being kurosaki.

4. We know someone else had similar fullbring to Ichigo's and Ginjou was reminded of it.

5. We know everyone of fullbringers, including ginjou (used to)go to same private school in which tsukishima is a teacher. That is important.

6. Kubo made sure that both Chad and Orihime would hold back against Ichigo and NOT use their new techniques. And he made sure to point that out so they most likely are a lot more stronger.



Its clear that htis arc has a higher purpose. Its just that most of people assumed its "regain powers" arc while Ichigo's fullbring was never portrayed or treated as power-up and was not the focus of this arc.

Looks like Bleach is starting to get on a roll again. I'm just wondering who the new main enemy will be. I doubt it will be those 2 that he is fighting right now. They just don't seem strong enough. Two weeks...it was definitely worth the wait!

ElMorty said:


So funny hearing somebody say that the point of this arc was NOT Ichigo getting his power back ... everybody would keep saying "this way you will get your shinigami powers back", "your shinigami power fusing with your new fullbring will lead to a far stronger source of power" ....



Aizen also said that Ichigo has no reiatsu, which was bullshit not-true.  Ukitake said that shinigami badge is just a representation of him being shinigami substitute, which was also bullshit.



The training was about regaining his powers. But the story itself was not.



Reading comprehension involves no longer taking everything someone says at face value.



ElMorty said:


but no, it's not all about Ichigo, the main chara, who is now defenseless, getting his power (ANY power) back in order to be able to fight again ...



His desperation for power was part of plot and might as well play the role, considering how SS might react to him seeking hollow-power intentionally. SS certainly has some ominous interest in it going by badge's dialogue.



ElMorty said:
the main chara loses his power and cannot compete with the weakest of his enemies ... the result is: next arc will alternatively lead to the end of the manga, or to the main chara being able to fight again, with any power available



Yes, Ichigo's motivation was about regaining the power. However storytelling did not portray that power as power up. Did you decade ago complain that "omg greymon evolved into skullgreymon and now they throw away that power up for a new form one episode later, omg stupid"? The portrayal of this was not about power up itself.



ElMorty said:


Lacking reading comprehension does not prevent me to comprehend this, because it is something one doesn't need even to read half a chapter to know ...



explains why you can't comprehend it.

ElMorty said:


That said, @Hypno-girl: about your theory regarding SS reproaching Ichigo something ... it's really interesting, and would give a purpose to this whole arc! Only, I couldn't find anything supporting this theory in any chapter ... if you know any, would you please report me any scene doing so?



the badge dialogue implying Rukia was at conflict of opinion over something Ichigo has done and ginjou's ominous glance at that.

The fact that SS is VERY strict on executing anyone who pursues hollow powers intentionally and fb is a hollow-nature power.

The fact that SS has people like Mayuri who would more than likely support condemnation of Ichigo, both due to grudge and so he can't intrude on his plot of what he found in hm.





ElMorty said:


And also, I'm yet not that sure that Ichigo is the strongest in the Gotei 13: I don't know much about SS hierarchy, but captain grandpa should be part of it, and captain grab-ass and captain tuberculosis are surly in it! And I wouldn't be that sure that Ichigo is stronger than them! ^^



BASE-Aizen blitzed and one-hit-ko'd Shunsui, Ukitake, Shinji, etc.

Base Aizen dealt with Yamamoto's most powerful pre-bankai attack and tanked it.

Dangai-Ichigo played around Seraphim-Aizen who is 3 forms above base aizen.

Dangai Ichigo played around Monster-Aizen who is 4 forms above base aizen.



Yama is powerful and a powerhouse but he is nowhere near Ichigo's current height of power.



ElMorty said:


Other thing: it's known if all FB user are on the same side as Ginjou and Tsukushima: it was once said by Ginjou that FB user need a half shinigami half FB user in order to free themselves from their FB powers, which are related to the hollow world ... but now I guess Ichigo's not able to do such a thing anymore, since his FB has been stolen! So what use is to Ginjou stealing is power is still unknown ... "hunger of power"? Maybe ... maybe not!



And you failed to notice that this implies that Ginjou IS half-shinigami how?



only shinigami/fb hybrid can steal fb powers -> ginjou steals Ichigo's fb -> Ginjou is shinigami-fb-hybrid he told Ichigo Tsuki killed.



ElMorty said:


About this arc being useless: I now think the only interesting thing about it could be Ginjou and Tsukushima's connection with the kurosakis and SS ...

but everything else just seems to me without any purpose (I didn't see any development in Ichigo's character, nor in anyone else's, and the introduction from charas other then Ginjou and Tsukushima doesn't seem so important ...)



Badge - which has been hinted to have a big importance ever since ukitake gave it to him.

God-knows-what-the-fb-goal-is.

Isshin backstory possibility.

One of biggest mysteries in manga, the kurosaki family background revealed a bit in this arc's future(as kurosaki family background is what kubo listed as one of the gamechangers on how one would view entire plot, others being stuff like aizen's connection to isshin and badge and etc).



ElMorty said:


Still I've got this impression that  everything is a bit 'too cumbersome, and could have been easily simplified!



You are talking about mangaka who re-created the major plotpoints of new testament through karakura-arc. :)



Montrovant1488 said:
I don't know why I keep reading this shit, Ichigo's so over-powered it doesn't make sense, I think I deign reading this out of a sense of morbidity, and to re-affirm my believe that this will end as a piece of crap. (After Aizen, Bleach lost its Raison d'Etre, otherwise I wouldn't be calling this a piece of shit, and to all butthurts out there, you can take two more inches, as you are free to show your fanboyism I am free to take a dump on it).



I love how people like this one seem to conveniently forget that Ichigo will need to face cosmic horrors like royal guards and soul king(aka the thing that is connected to ENTIRE UNIVERSE)  latter on...



Aizen is the disk-one boss who latter on helps the hero.

SK is the real badguy out there.

amenboy972 said:
I am very happyyyyyyyy !!!



A very awesome chapter, the best, I make a big clap hand for Tite Kubo…. Why  ???



Because this chapter is a message for someone like Mr Fay and Mrs Hypnos-girl who think they have the absolute truth and look down on me...



So now all the Fullbringers can run away as Usain Bolt... If they have the time, of course !!!



Oh please elaborate my dear,

What did I said in earlier thread that do contradict anything this chapter brought up? Let's hear you.

I loved this chapter. I didn't expect the captains to come. His getsuga was strong but I am still confused about it's power level. I am glad that he didn't lose his power^_^ I can't wait for the next chapter >_<

Fai said:
no. This arc is about Isshin, kurosaki family and fullbringers, all of that unfolding while main character gets his powers back.

It TALKED about Isshin, Kurosaki family and fullbringers, but with bleach being a plain main stream battle manga, this had to be the arc in which the main chara regained his power. I can imagine an arc in which he would take his power back without anything being said about his family, while I can't imagine an entire arc in which Kubo would develope characters, unreveal secrets about the very soul king himself while Ichigo is not able of fighting. Bleach is a perfect example of a combact manga: they main chara has to be able to fight! (not that I like this thing, but it's the truth!)

This arc has surely talked about all those things you said, but is the arc in which the main chara gets its power back. I would rather say that Ichigo's desperate research for power was the main topic, and that his family's secrets were only bakground, than the other way around. And thus this arc point was Ichigo getting his power back, without any doubt.



Fai said:
ElMorty said:


And if he can, why make it so tragic when he did use it losing his power?

To further him as character. Ever Since the very start we had this whole normal stuff and this arc so far gave us a lot of insight on why ichigo acts as he does and what power means to him.

LoL a little bit too cliched for a main stream battle manga, to be needed as a main chara development, isn't it? .-.

Again, saying that a technique is so powerful because you can pull it off just once in your life and and lose your fighting ability after that, and then making it easy to use a second time after less than 40 chaps is quite lame ....



Fai said:
We know SS is ruthless on those who pursue hollow power. Ichigo did that and we still do not know what badge is. He might have unknowingly did something way worse.

But they can't be morally bad just because of this, can they? .-.



Fai said:
SS in itself is based around medieval japan, which in itself was highly nationalistic authoritarian regime.

Again, are only these the reasons for them being the bad guys? .-.



Fai said:
Going by shonen logic and genre, aizen represents change, urahara represents stagnation and gotei 13 represents conservative views.



Aizen had a very right(by shonen genre ideals) ideals - one should try to change the world according to how one sees it as injust or wrong.



Urahara on other hand takes passive approach - changing the world is pointless, impossible, you should not even try and give up.



What Aizen had was wrong means, which fits with fallen hero trope. He had a great goal, but he lost the rightful road towards it.

It's not only the means: is the direction towards he is willing to lead the present situation by the change he represents: one where only the strongest are worth of surviving. This is the perfect portrait of the average bad guys in shonen mangas ... I really don't see how his principles could be right! >,>



Fai said:
ElMorty said:
( also, why should the soul king "aka the thing that is connected to the entire universe" be the bad guy? .-. )



Because the mere sight of that thing turned Aizen from generic genius into a madman on road of changing the world?

Even this very feature of Aizen's characters is a very typical one of avarage bad guys of shonen mangas: a good guy who had became obsessed with power after seeing one whose power was way bigger than his own ... Such a hell of a bad guy!



Fai said:
The opponents Ichigo defeated are looking towards the viewer and lined in the row of order in which they were faced. Both Ichigo and Aizen however are  looking towards same direction away from the viewer towards something which is a huge shadow way way above them

Another interpretation: Aizen is not looking towards that creepy shadow, he's just turned giving his back, and the shadow represents the uncertainty of the future, and of the next foes to be defeated ... why not? .-.





Fai said:
Then we have the ongoing motiffs of divinity/sun-cross on Aizen and Ichigo designs (swastika is divinity or divine right, same as the sun cross, the symbol aizen had on his chest)

LoL, all these westerns asking a Japanese who's been drawing comics for Japan's youth not to use one of their religious symbols because over here it has a meaning that in Japan is not even that relevant ... that's globalization mixed with ignorance! ^^

BlackStonesBLAST said:
Yes ofc thats true but think about this when he fought aizen he did 200 years worth of training in 20 min i think it was? if im not wrong.. and that was also becuse he was gonna use the final getsuga tensho.. but yaa maybe he´s weaker maybe he´s stronger i dont know, but i think and hope he is stronger then when he lost to ichimaru and aizen when they fighted in the fake karakura town.



anyway we will know in the next chapter i hope :)



If I recall correctly he did something like 10 years of training in 1h.

Also shinigami existed for centuries and not once a (known to us) shinigami reached Ichigo's strengh let forget in ten years of training.



Ichigo did not pratice for more than a year, he may have gotten most of his power back but is not at his peak. Ichigo that was a powerhouse without control, against Aizen, was a powerhouse will total control over his power. Control take pratice so I would expect him to be a bit weaker than he was against Aizen.



Also note how Ichigo threw that Getsuga tensho at the house and not on Ginjou. I think that was very symbolic on Ichigo's part.

"Zangetsu, you old fart, you! How the hell are ya?! Bet you're glad to be back. And you thought we'd never see each other again."