Bleach Chapter 504 Discussion
- Thread starter morningstarAnimehfy
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- #67
Candor said:
KingofConquerors said:
I still can't accept the fact that chojiro had bankai, never....chojiro having a bankai is one of the biggest most gigantic asspulls Kubo has ever come up with (aside from Kenpachi beating nnoitra, i mean wtf, Ichigo had to acquire Bankai and Hollowfication to barely win against Grimmjow while Kenpachi killed off nnoiitra without any power-ups at all!). No matter how secretive he was about his bankai, any sane SS officer would have unleashed their true power throughout the winter war (Aizen pretty much fucked up the entire captains)....
Chojirou would have soloed the first and third espada single-handedly if he had joined in the fray....-__-So Renji and Ikkaku have bankai, why wouldn't Sakakibe, the oldest vice-captain and the oldest captain candidate, have bankai? In the fight against Aizen every captain faced an Espada and the Vizard came to help, so Sasakibe didn't really have any job to do at that time. He's also a captain-level Shinigami, he couldn't defeat the 1-3 Espada because they were above captain level.
Speaking of Ichigo vs Nnoitra, Ichigo was fighting with Grimmjow before Nnoitra and was kicked around a lot (because he was being emo, Inoue was afraid of him..etc), and he lost a lot of reiatsu, so he couldn't stand a chance against Nnoitra. In Kenpachi vs Nnoitra, Kenpachi was about to die if he didn't use that Kendo technique, so that's kinda a power-up. But how did Kenpachi defeat 3 Quincy? There was a mistake in translation in Mangapanda's version. If you read the mangastream version you'd notice that there are at least 6 Quincy that are above Captain Level, which means the number of the stronger Quincy haven't been mentioned exactly yet, so Kenpachi killed the weaker ones. There will probably also be some other explanations that's coming in this arc about Ichigo & Kenpachi.
About Ichigo vs Nnoitra, ichigo, even in his full-health, would not have been able to win in that battle. He BARELY defeated grimmjow and afterwards encountered an espada that was definitely stronger than Grimmjow, by logic he wouldn't be able to win, which brings me to the topic of Kenpachi. How could a Kendo ability upgrade be much more significant than a bankai and hollowfication. This guy drew with a shikai ichigo, how the hell did a kendo upgrade elevate him so high in terms of power scale? why didn't he use it against Ichigo when they fought?
Now back to the topic of Sasakibe, i'm still sticking' to my opinion that on the basis of the flashback that Kubo gave in this chapter, logically Sasakibe should have assisted the ss officers throughout the winter war. I know that perhaps Yamamoto ordered him not to interfere, but logically judging by how his character was established in the flashback, he should have had the capacity to refuse (he disobeyed Yamamoto's order to become a student of his dojo if he wanted to become his retainer)
and about him being old enough to have bankai, i don't think his age has anything to do with it. Some of the vizards that used to be vice-captains in SS (i forgot their names but u know what i'm talking about)are older than Ikkaku or Renji, yet they haven't been shown to have a bankai, so i don't think this point u brought about is valid...
so yeah, i still believe this posthumous power-up of the character is a huge asspull
But i've sunk my teeth into this, so i'll stick to this till the end....As I said Ichigo was going emo while facing Grimmjow, he was distracted by Inoue's fear of him, she called him he started fighting seriously. About Kenpachi, I think he said that that Kendo was supposed to make him 10x times stronger or something like that, more or less. Anyway Kubo hinted he'll explain things about Kenpachi in this arc, I think it's about his past and why he's getting stronger, let's hope it's gonna answer some questions.
Sakakibe's personality was built this way you're right, he actually disobeyed orders again in Fake KT arc by letting the Visord inside the barrier of the battle. However, he was standing outside alone to protect the barrier, which means he's strong enough to repel any danger that can come from outside the barrier, not that there were any but still. Also he trusts the captains and trust their abilities, he lived long enough to know every single one of them, and the ones before them, and how strong they are. About his Bankai, he is a captain-candidate, old (older than the vice-captains of the Visords), and the vice-captain of the 1st division, I have no idea why you're still thinking it's a huge asspull. Ok Kubo might've not thought about it before, but I see no problem with the way he pulled it out, considering all those three a Bankai for him was expectable, he obtained Bankai, trained it for years, mastered it, but didn't use it often where's the problem in that? He was a hard-worker after-all. Another thing, Byakuya, Gin, and Hitsugaya, these 3 and others obtained Bankai in a matter of 100 years, why wouldn't a guy who's hundreds of years older than those have Bankai? The Visord might be a special case, they were in the living world and the have hollow powers, we also don't know whether the Visord VC have Bankais or not.
Things in shonen manga work this way, the author reads his work, see where he can put something, and do it. They're serialized for years I don't think anyone could plan his series from the beginning until the end, the main stuff can be planned but the details.. I don't think so. I think the way Sakakibe's Bankai was pulled is pretty reasonable; he just didn't use it and was following orders from the man he's been following for hundred of years, when he felt he was attacked he released it and it was taken away from him and he was hurt badly and he died, the end.
- #68
I totally agree that Ichıgo is a beast. But what bothers me is that rather than being knocked out by a single punch, he could release its bankai and put a decent fight. BTW he was in shikai (at least one tenth power of bankai), he shouldn't have been that weak.
If you remember when Noitora was cut by Zaraki, he was about to die but with his resurrection form he was on arguably equal footing.
The bankai thing, Kubo pulled it from his ass just recently :D.
For next chapters, it about time for Ichıgo to kick some quincy asses.
You , for some reason, are under impression that every bankai somehow powers up everything about the user of it.
Newsflash: its not how it works.
Only few bankais affect the base stats of their users(example: Zangetsu increasing Ichigo's speed, Senbonzakura amplifying the attack power and speed, etc), most of bankais do one thing - make stuff killing easier, in most of cases on a wider scale.
Bankai is a nuke, not an armor. Bankai does not make you more durable. It does not make you better in everything. It just gives you an advantage in a fight.
A punch from Ichigo would knock Sasakibe out with or without a bankai activated if Ichigo lands the hit first, the question is on:
A) Would Sasakibe been fast enough to activate bankai against someone who OUTRAN BYAKUYA and is one of the FASTEST characters in the whole manga.
B) Would Sasakibe even consider using a bankai against someone who supposedly only barely defeated a weaker vice like Renji.
The answer to both is no.
SS-Ichigo at its peak has a speed advantage and has enough offensive power to knock out captain level opponents.
And no, Zaraki and Nnoitora were not equal. Zaraki purposeful limits himself in order to enjoy fights and is amongst the strongest characters in the manga as this arc has shown. Its just that Ichigo at his peak is stronger than both Nnoitora and Zaraki and and Ichigo without resolve and without his full power is WAY weaker than both Nnoitora and Zaraki.
As for Zaraki versus Nnoitora, the fight clearly shows that Zaraki has way bigger maximum power than Nnoitora did and if they were equal it was because Nnoitora had some of best deffensive capabilities of Espada AND because Zaraki wanted to fight equally, but still managed to tank most of Nnoitora's hits. The very fact that Ichigo managed to get past Zaraki's durability in their fight only shows even more at what peak Ichigo is capable of.
zaraki even acknowledges it himself via his thirst to battle Ichigo again, because Zaraki wants to surpass him.
- #69
Just because Kubo didn't have enough balls to kill off a character, people actually cared about, he's creating a back story for some guy, so readers can feel sorry for him retroactively, aww.
That's poor.
I honestly think that this flashback was intended more for Yamamoto rather than what you are saying. The teacher-student like relationship between captains and vice-cpatains aint new either so...I find it nice and succesful. The badside is, as always for me, pointlessly huge panels (the story actually resumed in page 5 sheesh with no particular art to show for it)
- #72
Fai said:
patr10 said:
At the begining of Bleach, when Ichigo tried to save Rukia, Choujiro Sasakibe was down by single punch from the Ichigo, and now we learn that he had a bankai 2000 years ago. WTF?
Maybe he forgot how to use it, huh..!
Ichigo is a beast. You DO know that right? The problem with him is that due to hollow self he was unable to use his full potential of powers since the power was split in two. Thus his strength varied, as Ulquiora saying, going from measly fodder to way above Ulqi.
Ichigo did not suddenly "get" more reiatsu. He learned to use and mastered what he had. Jinzen allowed him to be at peak potential all the time and peak-Ichigo was facepalming Aizen(after several transformations and power increases) into the groupd
That makes the sokyoku accident easy to explain - Ichigo when he arrived was at the highest of his potential, with full resolve and etc, thus its normal that someone who has capability of reaching levels way above Aizen, to own some captain level oponents.
Chojiro had no time to use his bankai - had he used his bankai, we have no idea what would happen. But he most likely underestimated Ichigo's power(due to fluctuating nature of it) and paid the price by getting knocked out.
Pretty much this.
The same thing happened when he fought against Zaraki, he beat Zaraki in one single hit once he entrusted his body to Zangetsu.
Ichigo at his peak since day 1 is horribly strong.
When Renji and Byakuya came to get Rukia in the real world, Renji was pretty much scared by Ichigo's reiatsu when Ichigo wasn't even using shikai, he was in a totally unreleased state.
Also the first chapter when Rukia commented that Ichigo's sword was huge (which is caused by the host's reiatsu) when Rukia is pretty much a vice-captain level fighter.
When Ichigo countered a Cero and cut a Menos in two.
Blocking the Sokyoku to begin with is a feat on it's own.
That thing is supposed to be able to incinerate Captain class shinigami like nothing and it is said to hold the power of 1 000 000 zanpakutou. It's incomparably stronger than Yamamoto's zanpakuto.
Yet Ichigo blocked it in shikai.
Even seniors captain were shocked at the sight.
Basically Ichigo always was the strongest, since day 1. He just didn't know how to use his power and his 'power up' were only him learning to control his own power better. In his Dangai training he finally hit the wall of his power and mastered them completely.
Now in this arc Ichigo should receive his very first real powerup in the entire serie.
I totally agree that Ichıgo is a beast. But what bothers me is that rather than being knocked out by a single punch, he could release its bankai and put a decent fight. BTW he was in shikai (at least one tenth power of bankai), he shouldn't have been that weak.
If you remember when Noitora was cut by Zaraki, he was about to die but with his resurrection form he was on arguably equal footing.
The bankai thing, Kubo pulled it from his ass just recently :D.
For next chapters, it about time for Ichıgo to kick some quincy asses.
- #73
FINALLY.. the younger version of Yamamoto and Chojiro
phew.. i sense flahback even older than 1000.. or..
This is very confusing.. is the Shinigami and the Royal Guards or whatever they called.. aren't they used to be human? because some of them like Renji, Rukia and even Kenpachi live in the Rukongai where supposedly dead human in the real world were brought here. and this make them ex-human..
This has bugged me for a long time.. like the timeline is very very confusing.. (maybe my fault cos i dont understand). Is there something like 100 years in ss is equal to 1 year in real world? or something else.. can someone explain??
Urahara. He lives a 100 years ago and exiled to real world.. Thus his aging now follow the time in ss or he lives as a human being?? (along with Tesai)These were plot-holes that were explained in an official character book (an old one), they're written in wikia.bleach.com, here you go (the first paragraph was in the manga, the rest wasn't): While Rukia Kuchiki initially describes Soul Society as something of a paradise, where nine out of ten times it is better than the living world and hunger is never a problem.[2]
Soul Society is far from sublime. In fact, aside from the slowed aging and aforementioned lack of hunger, life there is much like that in the living world.
Soul Society consists of the Rukongai (流魂街, wandering soul city; Viz: Rukon District), where souls live when they arrive in Soul Society, and Seireitei (瀞霊廷, court of pure souls), which is at the center of Soul Society. The mode of life here closely resembles that of feudal Japan.
The Human World and Soul Society are parallel to each other and are two sides of the same coin. Families separated by death are rarely reunited in the Soul Society unless they arrive in Soul Society together. People live nestled together like a family of strangers. One never gets hungry (if she or he doesn't have spiritual powers) and aging is slowed to a great extent, with lifespans of 2000 or more years not being unheard of, though such ages are limited to Shinigami or other Soul Society dwellers with high spiritual power. Children can be born as they are in the Human World. People can also be killed as regular Humans are, though they are capable of surviving wounds that would normally be considered fatal. A soul that dies in Soul Society is reincarnated on Earth as a new Human with no past memories.[3]
Some stuff have been explained also in this arc (the balance of the 2 worlds, the balancers, and the coin part that was mentioned in the character book), so we will probably get more explanations about Bleach's world in addition to flash-backs for lots of characters in this arc.
About Urahara, he wasn't exiled, he ran away from Soul Society with Yoruichi, Tessai and the Vizard, you can re-check the Pendulum arc.