Bleach Chapter 497 Discussion
- Thread starter AdrianLuca
- Start date
- #3
Loggoyl said:
I already forgot that Inoue can Heal Kira and Koryaku. So there's no problem there.
It's all bullshit anyway. Shinigami can fight without bankai. They have Kido and Hado, remember? And Of course Shikai! Why go bankai directly?!
But the plot always wins.
Also, we have the vizored, and quicies hopefully cannot steal hollow masks!
Quincy take the energy in the air to use their spell.If Kido/Hado would work on your average quincy, using some against such high level quincy is like asking to fuel them so that they own your ass.
They are also fighting with Shikai but it's nearly not enough, bankai tenfold their reiatsu and without that boost they cannot fight them.
Hollow mask or not, those quincy are stronger than the espada, they are fated to get their ass kicked.
Han-yuu said:
First of all Kyouraku said, he’s strong and i heard others saying he’s a little genius guy or something but anway, so 30% was not enough. Let’s say he used 50% power to beat a gillian (though i think it was more than that because he was practically useless on 30% level) So what can he possibly do against an espada? And a number 3 espada in all of them? Not he did survive but never took any good demage at all. I guess that gillian was lot better than what Halibal did in her given time.
He's a genius, a prodigy but that only means that he's an exceptionnaly fast learner and someone very talented for the time he had. He's still the weakest captain amongst the 13 squads but he has the potential to rise amongst the strongest if he had the time to.
Let's drop the math aside. The only reason why he got hurt badly against the Gillian is because of his limiter. If he had been at full power since the start then the Gillian would have gotten his ass handed to him.
Also there's to note that Hitsugaya powered up since the first time he met the Gillian but it's like you're making Hitsugaya at that time as strong as FKT Hitsugaya.
Last time I checked, they were fighting Halibel 2v1 or 3v1 and they seemed to have big trouble while Halibel seemed to play arround.
You seem to really underestimate the limiter. To give you an exemple, if you're power is limited by half then imagine yourself doing sports or fighting while holding something proportional to half of your weight. You could have been the best in the world without that limiter but once you have it a total noob might do a number on you. You aren't at twice of your ability, you are much lower than that.
Problem is that you people are too much fixated on evaluating character power level with assumed and fictive numbers and so the moment it do not match up you blame the manga for not making sense. Can't expect someone that never fought once of his entire life to understand that in a fight, poweroutput is not that most important thing.
Han-yuu said:
Maddo_scientisto said:
Aizen was very close to the limit of Shinigami, hence his interest over crossing the border between Hollow and Shinigami.
Aizen always was much stronger than every single captain except Yama which is the only shinigami alive to have reached this said limit (Or at least being closer to it than Aizen).
1-Did i said, Aizen was weak? He was strong that’s why he easily fooled everyone and escaped so easily at the end of soul society arc.
2-What i meant was that Kubo humiliated all other captains. It was not necessary for Aizen to beat all of them. I mean what the hell are they doing for thousands of years ? all that practice, hard-work, status, shikai, bankai, riatsu level. That everything become useless.
3-Everyone know Aizen is strong but If There was some importance for other characters, like top 4 espada. If they lived up to their hype, you can get at-least 6 captains on the floor. After they’re done with their role, it’s okay for strac and second espada to die (at-least they were usefull) and then Aizen strike Halibel from behind for whatever reason.
4-Then you can see Aizen vs Remaining captains, ichigo, isshin, urhara, yoruichi etc. That would’ve been a lot better. In overall, Espada did nothing to story. Yeah absolutely nothing. They just appeared as so much over-hyped powerful enemies. 7 of them lost in hueco mundo. 3 of them lost in fake karakura without doing anything significant to their opponent except few injuries which are not even to count when you have orihime and unohana.
1-No nothing to do with his strength, he just well planned his things.
2-Most captain were doing paperwork and supervising those under them. They never felt any strong threat and thus were content with their power. It was necessary for Aizen to beat all them up otherwhise this would not have made sense. You tell me that Aizen would let captains get in his way just because he's a M and he like that? Aizen had the capacity to do it so there's nothing weird in him doing it.
3- That's the thing, stop calculating things with number for a moment. Espada lived up to the hype kubo made of them but you fan were talking between each other and ended up expecting the world out of them.
Halibel/espada 2/Stark were outnumbered and even though they could have mopped the floor with anyone they were fighting against in 1v1 that wasn't the case.
When fighting multiple opponents you do not have to be stronger than the total of them, you have to be much stronger than that.
You can't say that if Halibbel power is 5000 and that the two people she was fighting against power were 2000 each she would be able to beat them, that would actually be retarded if a fight worked that easely.
Again stop making a chart in your head, a fight is not about poweroutput but I can understand you since most shounen nowaday make it look as such.
4- The first time Aizen met the espada he told them to not trust him. The fight were dragging out and he expected Ichigo to come soon so he ended it on his own because of his own agenda.
The espada did nothing?
They created a threat that forced captains to improve and train, they instaured a long-forgotten concept of fear on the seniority of an "allpowerfull nation". They moved characted, gave relief to the story and served multiple time in character developement. But of course, since they didn't kill a shinigami they did nothing.
Han-yuu said:
Maddo_scientisto said:
Ichigo powers
I didn’t even said anything about ichigo powers. You missed the whole point of my post. Let’s say Ichigo is THAT strong then what? All other characters are useless..?
Yes because a character is useless if he's not strong, life must be pretty boring from your perspective.
Han-yuu said:
1-Isn’t that based on merely conjectures? Did kubo mentioned anywhere for them to be that strong? I guess NOT.
2-Those guys are sealing or stealing bankai’s can be merely a trick and in matter of time, someone will figure it out and then what? Everything will get back their bankai’s and kaboom.. And once again situation will be just like espadas.
3-What real power i will accept is, if those bankais are gone forever OR even if they’re sealed temporarily. Quincies will get full benefit by killing at-least few important characters (for real this time), taking over soul society and show them, who's the boss here. Otherwise this whole dangai level or yama shikai power level is useless, If they just play around like “Hey look we’re strong. we killed thousands in few seconds” and before you knew they’re all dead like espadas.
1-Sure is.
Just to begin with, they speedblitzed and almost killed one of the four senior captains in one single shot. Secondly their angel form is a more complete form of what Ishida did in SS back in SS arc which Mayuri said that it wasn't a power that an individual should be able to wield while his look was something along the line of "that's something breaking the law of natural order".
Quincy bend reiatsu to their will, and their power basically absorb reiatsu in the air and use it to attack but here's the catch: In SS everything is made out of reaitsu... everything. They can absorb a building and use it to nuke something else(Ishida did something similar before in case you go "no they can't"), they are literally fighting in a place where they have limitless energy. We haven't seen what they can do in the real world but in the SS they are the strongest.
2-Even with bankai the captains are pretty much screwed if they fight in SS which lead me to beleive that the final fights will take place somewhere they do not have an infinite amount of energy to nuke with.
Also while Bankai are strong, some of them are not pratical.
People are going under the assumption that most captain that did not use bankai yet was because they 'were going easy on their opponent' but that's likely not the case.
Giving Yama's Shikai, his bankai just might be something that nuke everything in a radius of 100km, is it 'going easy on your opponent' if you do not use it in a teamfight? No that's just because his bankai isn't fit to the situation.
Giving Kyouraku's shikai, his bankai just might be a much more dangerous gamble situation, is it 'going easy on your opponent' when you do not want to harm yourself and your opponent in a fight you cannot afford to lose? No, that's just because his bankai isn't fit to the situation.
Bankai aren't all as cool and pratical as Byakuya's, get over it.
3- You just want to see a death to see a death, you don't care much about how it would affect the story and you just want to see someone die because that's what cool shounen do nowaday. I cannot agree with that.
While I agree that it's ridiculous that nobody important died in bleach yet, it's not because of a screwed power level but rather because of many deus ex machina that Kubo love to pull.
I'm not saying that Bleach have only good points, I also think that the espada could have done more but going at the extent of saying they did nothing is wrong.
Bleach did not manage to reach it's full potential and people are trying to nitpicking everything they can but most of the time stumble into sensical thing and try to make them sound senseless.
And finally
Han-yuu said:
What happened to his shikai and bankai in last fight? Did ichigo, isshin, urahra, yoruichi have some special powers and hypnotysm did not worked at all, so he had to relay on completely hogyuko.. or did i missed it somewhere?
Ichigo, Isshin, Urahara and Yoruichi weren't in SS when Aizen pulled Kyouka Suigetsu. This ability has been hinted over and over to be something that take times and hence that you cannot use in the middle of a fight, especially if your opponent expect it and can counter it just by looking somewhere else.
He managed to get SS under his control because he was doing a fake demonstration of his shikai but in reality he was hypnotising everyone that were watching.
He likely fooled the espada that didn't even knew Aizen's ability at all before they were caught in it.
But it's not really possible to do it against someone that expect it.
There's lot of reason why he didn't use his bankai:
-It offered something that Aizen didn't need while he was transforming (If it's a powertype bankai it would serve no purpose since he could already nuke everything without his zanpakutou)
-It might be only in effect against those that are under his shikai's hypnosism so he didn't need it since those in his hypnosism were already no problem to deal with.
-His power is a stronger version of his shikai. In the same way as his shikai it might not be something easy to activate and would put him in a bad spot.
-etc, there's lot of other reason why Aizen possibly could not have used his bankai in the situation he was in.
- #5
The only reason why he got hurt badly against the Gillian is because of his limiter. If he had been at full power since the start then the Gillian would have gotten his ass handed to him.
Also there's to note that Hitsugaya powered up since the first time he met the Gillian but it's like you're making Hitsugaya at that time as strong as FKT Hitsugaya.
You seem to really underestimate the limiter. To give you an exemple, if you're power is limited by half then imagine yourself doing sports or fighting while holding something proportional to half of your weight. You could have been the best in the world without that limiter but once you have it a total noob might do a number on you. You aren't at twice of your ability, you are much lower than that.
Last time I checked, they were fighting Halibel 2v1 or 3v1 and they seemed to have big trouble while Halibel seemed to play arround.
Problem is that you people are too much fixated on evaluating character power level with assumed and fictive numbers and so the moment it do not match up you blame the manga for not making sense.
If opponent was strong then i won’t underestimate the power limiter but you seem to forgot, that gillian power level was not even one number behind espada. there was another group called “Privaron espada” which was stronger than that. (finding this "privaron" take me to page where tousen was looking on monitor. Which make me giggle and worth for looking this name)
If i have power limiter in sport and compete against a fairly low level opponent. I can defeat them by using my full limited power. The reason i will lose if opponent is stronger than my limited powers or i have too low confidence on my ability just because i don't have full power available, but i think it's hard for you to understand and It look like you never played sport or with limited power but i have played with injuries, which can work as power limiter.
The other thing i want to mention here is Ichigo power - which are highest at the moment but - was fairly low when hitsugaya was competing with a number 3 espada. Do you remember how hard time he had against grimmjow and beat him with his vizard power - which is supposed to be stronger than normal captain - and the moment he finished his fight, he was in no where near to fight again, even with noitra subordinate. That time 4 captains steps in hueco mundo and Aizen left for FKT. so time difference is not much but Hitsugaya power difference was too great to compete with Halibel and survive for quite sometime.
Last time i checked he trapped Halibel with his bankai. If it was not for that little arrancer help (i forgot his name) she was trapped there (forever?). Let's suppose if Hitsugaya was fighting with grimjow alone - just like ichigo – and without hollow powers. I would say girmjow is no match for him, because according to Kubo "each Espada member is chosen for their superior combat ability and then assigned a number". A bankai power which can trap Halibel (with her superior strength ability) there is no way Grimjow can survive.
I would want to mention Rukia fight as well with number 9 espada and Renji + Ishida fight against number 8 espada. How great difference was in the later one, both of them only survived just because Mayuri helped them in the end. not to mention, in that fight there was 2 other helpers as well, so it was 4v1 and 5v1 in the end.
Oh and we're talking about bleach power levels, obviously we will evaluate character powers or do you want me to just accept everything because i never fought or don't have super human abilities? Of-carouse it's author who make the rules and power levels but when you suddenly make a character so weak and then suddenly he become so strong, that's what you call hax and you will be criticized if there is not a good explanation.
Maddo_scientisto said:
No nothing to do with his strength, he just well planned his things.
It does. He fooled them with his Shikai powers NOT just telling some lies or some other cheap trick. It doesn't matter if they were fooled for Shikai demonstration. What happened after that was his zanpaktou work, which affected them for quite long and cost them too much.
Maddo_scientisto said:
Most captain were doing paperwork and supervising those under them. They never felt any strong threat and thus were content with their power. It was necessary for Aizen to beat all them up otherwhise this would not have made sense.
Oh my my. Aizen was the only one doing some real work all the time. I'm glad that's not an official statement from Kubo or I would think how more useless you can make them. Not to mention there were Vizards as well. Who were supposed to be doing even more quality work than Aizen in isolated space without any interference from Soul Society or controlling a bunch of weaklings, who serve no purpose in battles.
For the actual point. I would say again. It was not necessary for Aizen to beat all them up. It would’ve been less humiliating if he beat them all in one on one fight but ganging up on Aizen and getting beat up like that. It’s nothing more than a joke. Just like a bunch of cannon fodders in a movie. Only difference here is they’re still not forgotten, have their high posts and big fanbase.
edit:
Maddo_scientisto said:
You tell me that Aizen would let captains get in his way just because he's a M and he like that? Aizen had the capacity to do it so there's nothing weird in him doing it.
Aaw.. i forgot to ask about this. Aizen is M? I thought He was S with big smirk on his face. And NO, those few captains should've been on the ground. That's what i'm saying all along. Espadas were the one who should've defeated them not Aizen. If Halibel had taken out Hitsugaya. There is no way he would've get in Aizen way and one-shotted by him second time.
Maddo_scientisto said:
Espada lived up to the hype kubo made of them but you fan were talking between each other and ended up expecting the world out of them.
Halibel/espada 2/Stark were outnumbered and even though they could have mopped the floor with anyone they were fighting against in 1v1 that wasn't the case.
When fighting multiple opponents you do not have to be stronger than the total of them, you have to be much stronger than that.
You can't say that if Halibbel power is 5000 and that the two people she was fighting against power were 2000 each she would be able to beat them, that would actually be retarded if a fight worked that easely.
The first time Aizen met the espada he told them to not trust him. The fight were dragging out and he expected Ichigo to come soon so he ended it on his own because of his own agenda.
The espada did nothing? They created a threat that forced captains to improve and train, they instaured a long-forgotten concept of fear on the seniority of an "allpowerfull nation". They moved characted, gave relief to the story and served multiple time in character developement. But of course, since they didn't kill a shinigami they did nothing.
NO. They were not.
In above reference i posted, It's hitsugaya who trapped Halibel when it was 1v1.. Also It was Halibel who received help first, not Hitsugaya. Also Hiyori and That other megane girl joined fight and before she start fight seriously Aizen take her out. Another good character who served no purpose and didn't lived up to her hype.
And NO.. I was not expecting too much like killing all soul society or one guy to take out several captains just like Aizen did. Neither i wanted them to kill good guys because that doesn't happened in bleach, so expecting things like that would be asking for impossible. What i wanted was just to beat few good guys. Didn't i said, "Aizen beat the hell out of everyone, humiliated them and lost against ichigo" .. does that mean Aizen killed everyone? Not a single :D.. he just defeated them. If ALL espada just served little bit purpose by beating at-least few captains and make them unable to fight anymore, that would have been enough.
Maddo_scientisto said:
Yes because a character is useless if he's not strong, life must be pretty boring from your perspective
Hehehe. A character is useless if he is NOT useful when you need him.
It's Soul Society War in FKT (and include the recent events) and (pretty much) an outsider is saving them. Yup. very useful characters. Wait let me say it again, very useful characters and great common sense as well.
Maddo_scientisto said:
Sure is..
Just to begin with..........
I won't comment on this now. We will see how much raitsu and power absorb abilities will help them in taking over soul society.
Maddo_scientisto said:
Even with bankai the captains are pretty much screwed if they fight in SS which lead me to believe that the final fights will take place somewhere they do not have an infinite amount of energy to nuke with.
Now that's an interesting point. Lets hope that will happen and situation won't reverse if captains get control on bankai's again. It’s also necessary to prove your point about all their dangai and yama shikai level powers. Even though it seem quencies sure are a bit afraid against bankai's right now.
Maddo_scientisto said:
People are going under the assumption that most captain that did not use bankai yet was because they 'were going easy on their opponent' but that's likely not the case.
Giving Yama's Shikai, his bankai just might be something that nuke everything in a radius of 100km, is it 'going easy on your opponent' if you do not use it in a teamfight? No that's just because his bankai isn't fit to the situation.
Giving Kyouraku's shikai, his bankai just might be a much more dangerous gamble situation, is it 'going easy on your opponent' when you do not want to harm yourself and your opponent in a fight you cannot afford to lose? No, that's just because his bankai isn't fit to the situation.
Bankai aren't all as cool and pratical as Byakuya's, get over it.
So your bankai is a nuke. you won’t use it. losing is better than using your weapon and winning? to make it more worse, after losing you're leaving your opponent to your friends, which you were supposed to beat.
In a war, A soldier prefer victory over his life. And a good soldier can retreat as strategy. he can change his location. He can create a situation where he can win the fight and save his friends and country. Losing is not an option just because your weapon is nuke. There are ways to avoid friendly fire. Either your friends have to retreat or you can make it possible with different strategies. AND Bleach is mostly about one on one fight. that make it even more easier.
Maddo_scientisto said:
You just want to see a death to see a death, you don't care much about how it would affect the story and you just want to see someone die because that's what cool shounen do nowaday. I cannot agree with that.
Yes. i want because enough is enough. :) BUT yeah. even if quincies get things done rightly this time and only kira die. I would be happy with only that.
Maddo_scientisto said:
Ichigo, Isshin, Urahara and Yoruichi weren't in SS when Aizen pulled Kyouka Suigetsu. This ability has been hinted over and over to be something that take times and hence that you cannot use in the middle of a fight, especially if your opponent expect it and can counter it just by looking somewhere else.
It take too much time to activate and can be easily avoided? In order to use it properly you have to fool someone first.......... Whoa, I don't know what to think. Kubo you done it again. So our strongest Aizen was relying on stolen hogyoko powers and a zanpaktou powers against handful peoples after fooling them and If your new opponent know you ability, it's become useless.
Maddo_scientisto said:
While I agree that it's ridiculous that nobody important died in bleach yet, it's not because of a screwed power level but rather because of many deus ex machina that Kubo love to pull.
I'm not saying that Bleach have only good points, I also think that the espada could have done more but going at the extent of saying they did nothing is wrong.
I would like to say congratulation in the end for proving me wrong about your 100% blindly support for Bleach. Though i wouldn’t hate that at all either. Nitpicking and most of one liner comments are no fun in any discussion thread. You and Fai make bleach threads more interesting. I like to read some positive stuff in discussions, that total hatred bleach mostly get and those small nitpickings are no good. Sometime i think why someone reading this when you're not even a little bit optimistic and just read it for nitpicking.
- #7
Surprise me, Kubo. I'm waiting.
